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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Regional nuclear war
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westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Aug 16, 2017 - 3:08pm

kurt:

I was briefly in west LA in the early 1980s as a volunteer community organizer for the United Farm Workers of America AFL-CIO.  I would run early in the morning when the air quality was 'better'.  

In the early 1970s, on a high school band exchange trip to Toronto I recall not being able to see the Toronto Dominion (bank) towers from 2 blocks away.  I would have been 14 or 15 maybe at the time.  That was an eye-opening experience.

People in Ottawa would talk about how bad the air was in the immediate post-war years because of wood, coal and charcoal used for heating.  

But no, the USA is not leading by example.  The USA charges the lowest excise taxes on dirty gasoline and diesel fuel among all the rich-OECD countries.  Despite air quality improvements over the past few years, your air is still dirty and you are leading in obesity and COPD.  

You have developed these massive networks of low-density suburbs that sprawl huge distances.  

Not so long ago, you invaded and occupied Iraq with a view to installing democracy and stabilizing the region so as to insure stable flows of oil from the area.  

It sure looks like hundred of thousands of innocent civilians were killed for the US cheap energy entitlement.  
 
I would describe Trump's withdrawal from the Paris agreement as incredibly myopic and short-sighted.   Let me explain why.   Team Trump promotes IGNORANCE AS STRENGTH.  American exceptionalism was always a polite way of saying that American voters and governments ignored American experts while voters and governments in other developed countries paid heed to American experts. 

Now American populism has gone the extra mile.  Educated, talented, and productive people in other countries will look at the US ecological footprint and they will react very negatively.   It will become much easier for other governments to say no to American governments, companies and investors.  


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 6:34pm

 kurtster wrote:

I lived in LA / OC during these times you refer to.  We used to have smog days where the visibility was less than a quarter of a mile on the ground because the smog was so thick.  There were temperature inversions in the SF Valley that would last for weeks sometimes.  They would only get broken up by the Santana Winds.  Now called the Santa Ana's.  When the offshore Santana's blew, all that smog in the Valley was blown out to the Channel Islands and sat there.  Catalina Island, which I could see from my house everyday, would be surrounded by a ring of smog that made me think of the Rings of Saturn.  Then when the marine onshore winds returned, it all got blown back into the OC.  All that concentrated smog.  Our throats would burn, the air was so bad.  We could not imagine what the people who lived on the island went through.  They had it before we got it.  We had smog days where schools were closed because it was so bad, like snow days back East.  We had to stay indoors more than a couple of times until it got diluted enough.  I remember seeing the SF Bay basin fill up with smog the same way as it does with fog in the 50's, and also very low ground visibility as well.  That's when the PCV or positive crankcase valve was created.  Back in the 60's in HS we where told that a huge asthma outbreak would happen at the turn of the century and the epicenter would be Long Beach.  So they were off by 10 years, but it has happened.

Unless you lived through this stuff, there is no way you can begin to imagine it.

The change in air quality in my lifetime is tremendous.  The change from the 60's to the 70's with unleaded gas made things even cleaner.  The point is that unless you have lived long enough to see how bad things were at one time, there is no way to say that enough hasn't been done so far.  That's not to say that things cannot still be improved, they always can.  And will, because its the right thing to do and even cheaper in the end so it makes business sense.

So yes, the Clean Air Act was a good thing.  But it has been taken to extremes.  Its very hard to notice improvements over the past 30 or so years, because so much was already cleaned up.  Now the changes are more noticed on charts than by the public at large.  

And the US is not stopping either and we are leading by example.  But ... to bear the economic burden for other countries for the purpose of tilting at windmills, doesn't cut it with me.  We can help as long as it doesn't hurt, but when it does hurt us, we have to stop helping and make the laggards carry their own weight.  Its not like we have done nothing and need to be punished for it.  

rant off

 

Would you care to back those assertions in bold with evidence? I'm not sure what economic burden you're talking about. There are a number of studies that dispute your assertions:
 
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/environmental-regulations-economy-jobs-pollution-epa

https://thinkprogress.org/new-study-the-economic-benefits-of-epa-regulations-massively-outweigh-the-costs-1bdd9097856a/



If EPA head Scott Pruitt has good reasons to roll back EPA regulations, why is he trying to conceal his actions and limit information traditionally provided by the EPA?

 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/us/politics/scott-pruitt-epa.html?_r=0


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 5:17pm

 islander wrote:

I've been reminding people that Los Angeles used to look like this all the time, and Denver had their 'brown cloud' too. That they don't anymore speaks to the effectiveness and need for the clean air act. 

 
I lived in LA / OC during these times you refer to.  We used to have smog days where the visibility was less than a quarter of a mile on the ground because the smog was so thick.  There were temperature inversions in the SF Valley that would last for weeks sometimes.  They would only get broken up by the Santana Winds.  Now called the Santa Ana's.  When the offshore Santana's blew, all that smog in the Valley was blown out to the Channel Islands and sat there.  Catalina Island, which I could see from my house everyday, would be surrounded by a ring of smog that made me think of the Rings of Saturn.  Then when the marine onshore winds returned, it all got blown back into the OC.  All that concentrated smog.  Our throats would burn, the air was so bad.  We could not imagine what the people who lived on the island went through.  They had it before we got it.  We had smog days where schools were closed because it was so bad, like snow days back East.  We had to stay indoors more than a couple of times until it got diluted enough.  I remember seeing the SF Bay basin fill up with smog the same way as it does with fog in the 50's, and also very low ground visibility as well.  That's when the PCV or positive crankcase valve was created.  Back in the 60's in HS we where told that a huge asthma outbreak would happen at the turn of the century and the epicenter would be Long Beach.  So they were off by 10 years, but it has happened.

Unless you lived through this stuff, there is no way you can begin to imagine it.

The change in air quality in my lifetime is tremendous.  The change from the 60's to the 70's with unleaded gas made things even cleaner.  The point is that unless you have lived long enough to see how bad things were at one time, there is no way to say that enough hasn't been done so far.  That's not to say that things cannot still be improved, they always can.  And will, because its the right thing to do and even cheaper in the end so it makes business sense.

So yes, the Clean Air Act was a good thing.  But it has been taken to extremes.  Its very hard to notice improvements over the past 30 or so years, because so much was already cleaned up.  Now the changes are more noticed on charts than by the public at large.  

And the US is not stopping either and we are leading by example.  But ... to bear the economic burden for other countries for the purpose of tilting at windmills, doesn't cut it with me.  We can help as long as it doesn't hurt, but when it does hurt us, we have to stop helping and make the laggards carry their own weight.  Its not like we have done nothing and need to be punished for it.  

rant off


islander
Thalassophile
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 8:39am

 westslope wrote:

No kidding, eh?   We have been under a blanket of smoke for almost 2 weeks now.  

Normally, it blows over into Alberta but this time, it blew down to the coast, even parts of Vancouver Island were shrouded in smoke.  And to the USA.   I wonder where the smoke in Montana will go.

We saw some blue sky yesterday.  It has been a while.  It would be nice to start using the p100 filter mask for I dunno... sanding the deck as opposed to wearing it while doing light gardening duties.
 
These coincidental wild fires help to bring into focus the potential consequences of President Trump's crude, macho threats directed at North Korea.   Instead of 2 weeks of a smoke blanket, imagine a decade or more of a constant smoke blanket, and multiple times more deadly particulate matter and radiation.  

 
I've been reminding people that Los Angeles used to look like this all the time, and Denver had their 'brown cloud' too. That they don't anymore speaks to the effectiveness and need for the clean air act. 
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Aug 12, 2017 - 7:57am

 islander wrote:

Hey we're just now finally getting rid of all our BC smoke down here, so I'm hoping to avoid mushroom clouds for a week or two.

 
No kidding, eh?   We have been under a blanket of smoke for almost 2 weeks now.  

Normally, it blows over into Alberta but this time, it blew down to the coast, even parts of Vancouver Island were shrouded in smoke.  And to the USA.   I wonder where the smoke in Montana will go.

We saw some blue sky yesterday.  It has been a while.  It would be nice to start using the p100 filter mask for I dunno... sanding the deck as opposed to wearing it while doing light gardening duties.
 
These coincidental wild fires help to bring into focus the potential consequences of President Trump's crude, macho threats directed at North Korea.   Instead of 2 weeks of a smoke blanket, imagine a decade or more of a constant smoke blanket, and multiple times more deadly particulate matter and radiation.  


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 6:46pm

 westslope wrote:
 
I believe it is important that we all view regional nuclear war as a potentially liberating experience. 
 
and of course we can't forget Vera Lynn


Prodigal_SOB
Work is the curse of the drinking class
Prodigal_SOB Avatar

Location: Back Home Again in Indiana
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Sagittarius
Chinese Yr: Snake


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 6:21pm

 westslope wrote:
I believe it is important that we all view regional nuclear war as a potentially liberating experience. 
 
 
 
 It's a classic.  Somebody had to post it  
oldviolin
ab origine
oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Leo


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 2:40pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
And me without any MREs.

 
First world problem...


buzz
banjaxed
buzz Avatar

Location: up the boohai
Zodiac: Aquarius
Chinese Yr: Rat


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 1:29pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
And me without any MREs.

 
how would a Mono-propellant Rocket Engine help? 
 
or is it a Market Research Executive?
 
{#Stupid} 

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 1:03pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
And me without any MREs.

 
Don't worry.

It'll be over before dinner's ready ...
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 12:38pm

And me without any MREs.
islander
Thalassophile
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 12:27pm

 westslope wrote:
Good one Scott!  I already re-posted to the BC flyfishing forum. 
 
I believe it is important that we all view regional nuclear war as a potentially liberating experience. 

 
Hey we're just now finally getting rid of all our BC smoke down here, so I'm hoping to avoid mushroom clouds for a week or two.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 12:20pm

Good one Scott!  I already re-posted to the BC flyfishing forum. 
 
I believe it is important that we all view regional nuclear war as a potentially liberating experience. 


islander
Thalassophile
islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Scorpio
Chinese Yr: Cock


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 12:02pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 
I'm stealing this for the weekend.
ScottFromWyoming
I eat pints
ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Pisces
Chinese Yr: Tiger


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 8:59am


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 8:14am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 westslope wrote:
-  send more money to RP so the Goldsmiths can move the RP operation to a secure bunker and acquire a short-wave transmitter

But the sound quality!

 

Well, when times are tough, sacrifices must be made!   
 
The argument could be made that RP should be treated as an essential service or an entitlement.  


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Libra
Chinese Yr: Dragon


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 7:57am

 marko86 wrote:
Duck and cover
 
Been there, done that ...  saw it when it was new  ...

what ever gets you through the night ...


Lazy8
human
Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 7:51am

 westslope wrote:
-  send more money to RP so the Goldsmiths can move the RP operation to a secure bunker and acquire a short-wave transmitter

But the sound quality!
marko86

marko86 Avatar

Location: North TX
Gender: Male
Zodiac: Taurus
Chinese Yr: Horse


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 7:32am

Duck and cover


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC desert


Posted: Aug 11, 2017 - 7:20am

Questions....

Does President Donald Trump make you feel safer?  

In the event of regional nuclear war, anthropogenic climate change as caused by carbon emissions will no longer be an issue.  Is that a good thing and cause for celebration?

  
How will you prepare?   

-  buy more cold weather clothing from Patagonia

-  stock up on tinned food

-  buy p100 filter masks and hope they work on radiation

-  complete the family 25-year supply of Iodine pills

-  finish renovations on the 12 X 18 lead-lined concrete bunker buried in the backyard

-  send more money to RP so the Goldsmiths can move the RP operation to a secure bunker and acquire a short-wave transmitter