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steeler
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 3:20pm

 steeler wrote:

Ah, yes, you are right.  I somehow had forgotten those court rulings.

So, it appears the Trump administration would be acting consistently with its detention policies on the border if it were permitted to deport Dreamers.

I will say, though, that "Zero Tolerance" is a policy.  Law enforcement officers and prosecutors make decisions every day not to arrest or prosecute, based on a lot of reasons that I will not go into here.  Trump himself has asked prosecutors to see fit to not prosecute people like General Flynn. 

Clearly, the Trump administration is using this "zero tolerance" detention policy, including the separation of children from their parents, to force Congress not just to act on this one law — a law the Trump administration apparently does not want to have to enforce, but feels it is compelled to do so (accepting their premise here) — but in tandem with other immigration-related laws that the administration would like passed.  First and foremost, Trump wants appropriations to build his wall on the Mexican border.  So, we see this is a negotiating ploy, essentially using these children as leverage.  Congress could pass a law today solving the problem the Trump administration claims it is facing if it did not insist on tying that up with other things that it wants to include in the legislation. Same with DACA.  So, this is leverage, and leverage of the worst kind.             

 
To borrow a phrase oft-heard here:  *crickets*
haresfur
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 3:16pm

 kurtster wrote:
The repatriation of an illegal immigrant ...


 
I guess your point is that refugee children should be allowed to stay in the US where they have a chance at a better life.

Because I don't think it is about following through the legal process after the court decided that he should be returned to his father so his family is kept together.

ETA: and you do know he was a legal refugee who landed outside a port of entry and had an automatic right to stay because Cubans are special, right?


aflanigan
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 3:14pm

 kurtster wrote:
I don't really do social media other than here or at discogs

 
Conservative virtue signaling?{#Wink}
islander
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 3:02pm

 kurtster wrote:

Yes I do remember the case and the circumstances. 

Sorry it took so long to post the picture, I don't really do social media other than here or at discogs.

There really isn't much in the way to deal with all the emotion driving this debate other than whataboutism. 

I tried sticking to the facts of the law and emotional based responses are mostly what I got back.

And from the looks of what the opposing media is doing its all about Nazis and the Holocaust.  So who is doing

the real whataboutism ?

 
You don't do social media, yet you consistently post the latest and greatest theories and talking points that are espoused on many of the right wing sites. Are you making some obscure take that you avoid the social part of that media?  Because it's pretty apparent that you soak in a lot of certain 'media'. 

You didn't like that you were consistently and strongly rebuked for your repeating of the above mentioned media theories because they fit your worldview of 'immigrants bad' and gave you half a dozen excuses that you could use that look less racist. So now you are digging out more crazy versions of that media?

You are not fighting the good fight, you are laying down with dogs because you think they have something for you. Once again, you are on the wrong side of an argument. You consistently wind up standing next to conspiracy theorists, white supremacists, fascists, and many other unsavory characters because they offer you a little bit of rationalization for your darkness. You can't hope to do that and not have their stench rub off on you.
R_P
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 3:02pm

 kurtster wrote:
I only mentioned Obama once in all of this and it was only to reference the number of DACA
children Trump was going to address was 3 times more than Obama was asking for.

And no Clinton's.  And I do not think that I showed any disrespect towards Obama in doing so.

I know that I broke the rules in just mentioning Obama and Trump in the same paragraph.  I know that I 
am not allowed to speak about or compare Obama to Trump in anyway shape or form in order to
have a legitimate thought about Trump.  That has been deemed an act of whataboutism.
 
Back to the victimization shtick. {#Yawn}
 
There's plenty of whataboutism going in on with this topic (not referring to this forum). It's about making claims of hypocrisy (which can of course be valid, though it's usually a red herring/deflection) when Trump's policies are attacked. What then follows is: but what about Obama (or Clinton)?

kurtster

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 2:54pm

 R_P wrote:

What about Obama? What about Clinton?
 
I only mentioned Obama once in all of this and it was only to reference the number of DACA
children Trump was going to address was 3 times more than Obama was asking for.

And no Clinton's.  And I do not think that I showed any disrespect towards Obama in doing so.

I know that I broke the rules in just mentioning Obama and Trump in the same paragraph.  I know that I 
am not allowed to speak about or compare Obama to Trump in anyway shape or form in order to
have a legitimate thought about Trump.  That has been deemed an act of whataboutism.


R_P
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 2:27pm

 kurtster wrote:
And from the looks of what the opposing media is doing its all about Nazis and the Holocaust.  So who is doing the real whataboutism?
 
Someone is actually saying "What about the Nazis?"
 

What about Obama? What about Clinton?
kurtster

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 2:11pm

 Proclivities wrote:

I assumed it was just a matter of time before you posted that picture; it's been all over right-wing social media lately; I'm surprised you haven't posted the other picture of the unaccompanied minors - who arrived in 2014 -  in cages.  Do you remember anything about that Elian Gonzalez case?  His mother drowned while they tried to flee Cuba and he was ultimately taken by INS to be reunited with his father (his only living parent) in Cuba after his "naturalized" relatives tried unsuccessfully to have him stay in the US and then defied the court order.  Yes, it was a terrible thing, which has nothing to do with what's going on presently, but any wrongdoing can be justified by vaguely related whataboutism.

 
Yes I do remember the case and the circumstances. 

Sorry it took so long to post the picture, I don't really do social media other than here or at discogs.

There really isn't much in the way to deal with all the emotion driving this debate other than whataboutism. 

I tried sticking to the facts of the law and emotional based responses are mostly what I got back.

And from the looks of what the opposing media is doing its all about Nazis and the Holocaust.  So who is doing

the real whataboutism ?
pigtail

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 2:01pm

 Proclivities wrote:

I assumed it was just a matter of time before you posted that picture; it's been all over right-wing social media lately; I'm surprised you haven't posted the other picture of the unaccompanied minors - who arrived in 2014 -  in cages.  Do you remember anything about that Elian Gonzalez case?  His mother drowned while they tried to flee Cuba and he was ultimately taken by INS to be reunited with his father (his only living parent) in Cuba after his "naturalized" relatives tried unsuccessfully to have him stay in the US and then defied the court order.  Yes, it was a terrible thing, which has nothing to do with what's going on presently, but any wrongdoing can be justified by vaguely related whataboutism.

 
{#Yes}
BlueHeronDruid

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 1:42pm

If you're a Facebook user, you might be interested in this page. Put your money where your compassion is.
Proclivities
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 1:41pm

 kurtster wrote:
d

 
I assumed it was just a matter of time before you posted that picture; it's been all over right-wing social media lately; I'm surprised you haven't posted the other picture of the unaccompanied minors - who arrived in 2014 -  in cages.  Do you remember anything about that Elian Gonzalez case?  His mother drowned while they tried to flee Cuba and he was ultimately taken by INS to be reunited with his father (his only living parent) in Cuba after his "naturalized" relatives tried unsuccessfully to have him stay in the US and then defied the court order.  Yes, it was a terrible thing, which has nothing to do with what's going on presently, but any wrongdoing can be justified by vaguely related whataboutism.
Lazy8
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 1:38pm

 kurtster wrote:
The repatriation of an illegal immigrant ...

 
I'm almost certain you were trying to make a point here.

ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 1:37pm

 kurtster wrote:
The repatriation of an illegal immigrant ...




 
 kurtster wrote:
So what's the point ?
  
kurtster

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 1:25pm

The repatriation of an illegal immigrant ...





R_P
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 12:15pm

Child Abductions: A Conversation It’s Hard to Believe We’re Even Having

US law enforcement agencies aren’t trying to track down the kidnappers and bring them to justice. US law enforcement agencies ARE the kidnappers, and US Attorney General Jeff Sessions pretends, quoting the Bible, no less, that this IS justice.

As jaded as we’ve become since 9/11 — as accustomed to the government’s violations of our own rights and the rights of those abroad, whether it’s TSA thugs groping Americans at airports or the CIA torturing foreigners at foreign “black sites” — surely we can all agree that this time Washington has finally gone too far, right?

Well, no. The President of the United States, his chief of staff, the Attorney General, and even some members of Congress are actively defending the abduction of children. Not as an emergency measure for kids in immediate danger, but as policy for the purpose of punishing parents who cross an imaginary line on the ground without politicians’ permission.

It’s an evil policy. Officials who order it are loathsome creatures whose appeals to God in its defense are nothing short of blasphemy. They and those who enforce it are criminals. Both deserve short trials and long sentences.

Hint to Republicans: When your best defense of a policy is that you’re just escalating a practice that occurred under Democrats as well, you’ve got no defense at all.


Lazy8
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 11:09am

kurtster wrote:
In terms of my understanding of the specific immigration law we are discussing, if the responsible adult is a felon or charged as a felon, that is a criteria for separation in the case of detention while illegally entering the country.
 
"Is a criteria"—whatever. The law requires no such thing and it isn't an excuse in the vast majority of immigration cases.

I am surprised at your position on this.  Is this not a case of bad legislation that went through with the knowledge of it being bad from the beginning with the rejoinder, we know its bad and we'll fix it later, just let us get this done now ?  Don't worry, no one will ever enforce it.
 
This isn't a case of bad policy being driven by bad law written by those mean old Democrats who aren't in power.You can keep repeating that talking point but it won't make it truer. For the record on this: I'm calling you, Donald Trump, and his henchmen liars.
 
It is, however, a good illustration of a legal principle: don't give a government any power you don't trust the lowest scumbag to abuse. He might just get elected.

Or how about we don't need another gun law since the one's we already have are not being enforced ?  And the defense of new gun laws is that we don't mean for them to go as far as you say they do.

This is the slippery slope argument being played out in full view, imho.
 
No, it's a complete diversion, a non-sequitur, a handfull of dust being thrown into the air to obscure the facts on the ground and the moral bankruptcy at the heart of a vicious policy abusing very vulnerable people for crass political aims. Kind of Orwellian, actually.

And finally there is this ...


 
Which law are you proposing repealing? I'm all ears.

cc_rider
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 10:54am

 kurtster wrote:
Sho nuff.

The wife's Mother's side of the family is an Okie branch of her family that she is 5th generation that originates in Roseville, California.
Her Mom was part of that Okie branch that returned back west during the Dust Bowl.  Her Mom's accent scared the shit out of me.  The family worked the orchards picking fruit pretty much until they retired.
Her uncles did sugar beets and worked for Holly Sugar in Tracy.  So yeah, I know this story.

It gets better, her second husband's family arrived in Costa Mesa, California in the 50's from Virginia.  The reason they settled there is that is where the family's car broke down and died after the trip west.
He recently left California for Texas after winning an age discrimination lawsuit which involved illegal immigrants replacing him on top of it all.  He was a painting contractor.  The building trades have been hit hardest by illegals.  

So what's the point ?
 
The point is, desperate people will resort to desperate measures. It sounds crazy to us that people would travel so far, under those conditions. But what are the alternatives? For the Okies it was starve to death, or worse see your children starve to death. For immigrants it is no different, just not as legal: the known consequences of staying are worse than the unknown consequences of leaving.

Worse, many of the countries they are fleeing, the US played a role in destabilizing. The CIA's operations in Central America are well-known. Some guys named North and Reagan had something to do with it too.

You're right about the building trades being hit by immigrant labor (regardless of status). However the construction industry, as well as the hospitality industry, would come to a screeching halt if immigrants left. As part of a longer quote, Anthony Bourdain said something like 'in twenty years of running restaurants, not once has a white kid come in looking for a job as a dishwasher, busboy, or even prep cook. Not once.'

In Texas and elsewhere, home construction would effectively cease. You want concrete or stone work? Forget it. Landscaping? Nope. Roofing? Ha. What, you want sheetrock taped, floated, and painted? Good luck with that.

We need immigration reform, and it needs to include provisions for guest workers. Provide mechanisms for companies to hire them and treat them fairly. Yes, there will always been some under-the-table shady stuff, but right now that's the only way those companies can operate.
Let illegal immigrants come out of the shadows, and allow them to show what they contribute to the country. The current system is utterly unworkable, which is a big reason we're having this mess.

However immigration, like other big issues like healthcare, is complicated. It won't fit on a bumper sticker or a red hat, so all it gets is lip service. And half-baked policies with a raft of unintended consequences.

In the meantime, we've created a humanitarian crisis within our own borders. Featuring children. If this is making America great, what does it say about us?
c.
kurtster

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 10:43am

 Lazy8 wrote:
kurtster wrote:
What exactly did I state that was incorrect ?
 
Here's some clarification from the UCIS. There is no requirement that asylum seekers be detained, that's a policy decision. In particular note this passage:
 
You may apply for asylum regardless of your immigration status, whether you are here legally or illegally.

Being a felon isn't grounds to separate parents from their children under any other circumstances (other than actual incarceration; in general we don't incarcerate children with their parents).
 
If children were only being separated from those not their legal guardians (so long as they were being reunited with same) this would not provoke an uproar, and I think you understand that. That said, being put in a prison camp is not preferable to staying with an uncle.
 
and permit me to expand ...

what does it mean to a libertarian when legislators ask for a bad law they pass to not be enforced instead of changing a bad law ?

So far no one has been willing to answer.

1. The Flores Settlement is a consent decree, not legislation.
2. The Flores Settlement puts limits on detention, it does not mandate it.
3. The 2008 law you are probably referring to applies to unaccompanied minors. The Trump administration is treating them as unaccompanied...because it separated them.
 
A libertarian's perspective is that the legislature created this problem in the first place by restricting legal immigration to the point that it simply isn't an option anymore. The legislature could solve it by opening that pathway, but the legislature is far too cowardly to do that—they're afraid of the backlash from people like you.


 
In terms of my understanding of the specific immigration law we are discussing, if the responsible adult is a felon or charged as a felon, that is a criteria for separation in the case of detention while illegally entering the country.

I am surprised at your position on this.  Is this not a case of bad legislation that went through with the knowledge of it being bad from the beginning with the rejoinder, we know its bad and we'll fix it later, just let us get this done now ?  Don't worry, no one will ever enforce it.

Or how about we don't need another gun law since the one's we already have are not being enforced ?  And the defense of new gun laws is that we don't mean for them to go as far as you say they do.

This is the slippery slope argument being played out in full view, imho.

And finally there is this ...



back to my nap ...
Steely_D
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 10:40am

 spammer wrote:
I should cut and paste something to show the world my brilliance!
 
Well, the current plan isn't working. So you could try.
islander
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 9:30am

 spammer wrote:

If only my Dad was an Okie from the depression era and I was a Steinbeck fan,maybe my ideology would be more acceptable around here.

Oh,wait a sec.{#Stupid}
 

Damn him and his teaching me to think for myself!

I should cut and paste something to show the world my brilliance!

 

Sometimes a man wants to be stupid if it lets him do a thing his cleverness forbids.
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