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Steely_D
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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 8:48am

 miamizsun wrote:
i guess it begs the question: "when does no mean no?"

and can people remember things differently?

i agree with you both in the sense that it is better to have conversation than not

slippery indeed
 
In a very simplistic way, kids are taught "no doesn't mean no" in every movie where the geek at the dance is initially rejected by the hot girl, but he pushes the envelope somehow and wins her affection. By the "no means no" rule, that second interaction wouldn't happen.

Because on the other side of the coin, girls would be needing to stop adopting the distant/dispassionate approach to getting a guy's attention. See how it gets complicated? "I know how to make him notice you! Just ignore him." So when someone says "go away" are they really saying "keep trying"?

Sheesh.


sirdroseph
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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 8:45am

 oldviolin wrote:

Personally I don't see Franken as anywhere near a male power figure but that's a personal opinion. Another personal opinion is that, in this case, he's an idiot trying to be clever and funny and take advantage of a situation here to indulge something deeper and darker within his personality. That lust thing is a tussle, man. Ain't no joke. As a matter of fact lust spelled in reverse is tusl, so anyway all this is hypocrisy as I see it and we are all a part especially when playing board games with politics and culture...

 




He grabbed this woman close to him during a photo op with her husband there and firmly grabbed her buttocks, fully cupping his hand, not much controversy. Pretty cut and dry here.
oldviolin
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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 8:30am

 sirdroseph wrote:
I tend to mostly always believe the woman myself in these circumstances though I know there are occasionally scam artist looking for a pay day. The way I figure it is the down side of an alleged victim revealing publicly is usually far greater than the upside so I am almost always believing of the victim in these cases. Sexual harassment and assault shouldn't have anything to do with the political persuasion of the offender, but that is just a microcosm of what is so wrong with our political discourse that it does. :-( This should help you guys out since everyone is so fascinated with Franken when I see it as just another male power figure doin' what they do:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/11/20/second-woman-accuses-sen-franken-sexual-misconduct-report/880222001/

 
Personally I don't see Franken as anywhere near a male power figure but that's a personal opinion. Another personal opinion is that, in this case, he's an idiot trying to be clever and funny and take advantage of a situation here to indulge something deeper and darker within his personality. That lust thing is a tussle, man. Ain't no joke. As a matter of fact lust spelled in reverse is tsul, so anyway all this is hypocrisy as I see it and we are all a part especially when playing board games with politics and culture...


sirdroseph
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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 8:22am

I tend to mostly always believe the woman myself in these circumstances though I know there are occasionally scam artist looking for a pay day. The way I figure it is the down side of an alleged victim revealing publicly is usually far greater than the upside so I am almost always believing of the victim in these cases. Sexual harassment and assault shouldn't have anything to do with the political persuasion of the offender, but that is just a microcosm of what is so wrong with our political discourse that it does. :-( This should help you guys out since everyone is so fascinated with Franken when I see it as just another male power figure doin' what they do:







https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/11/20/second-woman-accuses-sen-franken-sexual-misconduct-report/880222001/








aflanigan
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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 7:58am

 islander wrote:

I'm uncomfortable too, but it brings up some of the challenges with this series of events. Is there ever a place for shared accountability? Is there a time/place where lecherousness Should be expected - I'm thinking rock stars/groupies here  Maybe to a lesser extent sports stars.  If you go to a hotel room with Gene Simmons,  I'd still say you have the right not to be groped/raped/harrased, but I think there should be some accountability too, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that he's asking you up there for a cup of tea and a chat about stage decorations for the next tour. 

I don't know how to quantify this and balance it out, but especially in circumstances with humans and sex it is a lot more complicated than the very binary choices we are usually presented with. It's more than just who do you believe. I'm willing to assign more of the problem and responsibility  to men because we are obviously more of the problem. But I'm unwilling to say "if men would just control themselves this would all be fine". 

Franken was basically a rock star. He was in the entertainment industry, working in a strange land, in a stressful environment, with people that were apparently testing boundaries/ exploring norms. I think the picture is obviously in poor taste, but a lot of good comedy is in poor taste, and that's what they were doing..  The kiss is a bit worse, but even if it was exactly as she said, while bad I don't think rises to the level of pearl clutching that we are putting towards it. He's a senator now and should be held to a different standard.  But all indications are that he has performed to this higher standard since this incident. Add in here right wing history, other behavior on the tour, and I have a hard time calling for his head now.  

I used to have to occasionally reprimand people at work. It ran the gamut and It was my call on how to handle it. I handled everything from "immediate dismissal, arrange for security and walk them out" to an e-mail saying "you've been late twice this week, get it together".  If I were handling this situation, I'd call Al into my office, close the door so everyone knew it was serious, then say "dude, you know you screwed up right?", he would say "yes, and I'm really sorry. It won't happen again", and I'd say "it better not", then we would spend a few more minutes talking about work bs so everyone knew I was giving the matter serious attention it deserved.   If it were Bill Clinton, I would have fired him on the spot.  If it were Roy Moore, I would have needed security to keep me from getting into more serious trouble.    

Here's where this gets really hard for me - where do we draw the line? And how many lines do we draw? and who gets to decide which side of the line something falls on? And what if something is right on the line?  Because if we say any transgression is wrong (and unforgivable), you'll probably have to just separate men and women completely.   But I want to respect the rights of all people, women especially, and say that you should always have the right to feel safe in your person. I also want people to be responsible for themselves and have accountability for their actions.  So now we have a problem where you can't put three points of a triangle on the same line.  This is the messy complicated world we live in. Absolutes rarely are. 

 
I consider myself a feminist, and what a woman does with her body (including raunchy, crude, suggestive behavior with others) is up to her. And she has every right to act one way towards the people she chooses, while refusing to behave the same way (or accept similar behavior) with/from others. You have to establish some sort of consistency, however, by letting people know you don't welcome certain types of behavior from others, to make it clear that "hey, I know you've seen me kissing/groping/grinding on X, but it's not cool for you to initiate the same thing unless I give you the OK", or something along those lines. Leann Tweeden was 33 when she toured with Franken in 2006. That's old enough to take responsibility for making sure people don't get the wrong signals from how you interact with your peers/group members. From the limited evidence so far (including her version of the skit with Franken and the "rehearsal" kiss), she seems to have had enough self confidence to be able to easily tell someone if they crossed a line. I know she claims she was worried about potential "backlash" on her "broadcasting career" if she spoke up back then, but why not contact Franken personally and complain? Not only that, but she claims that after it happened, she told "others on the tour what Franken had done and they knew how I felt about it", which doesn't exactly gybe with her concern that the story not get out and generate negative backlash/sully her broadcasting reputation. And how much negative backlash would there really have been for someone who used to appear in the pages of flesh magazines? The picture of her fully clothed being "groped" while asleep seems kind of tame compared to anything you might see of her in Maxim or Playboy.

Again, if she wants to pose for such publications, publicly grope fellow performers, and then be outraged over lewd and suggestive behavior aimed her way, she has that right. Doesn't she also have some responsibility to give her peers a clear idea of what the rules for crossing the line are if she want's to hop back and forth over it with some of her peers?


miamizsun

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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 7:49am

 meower wrote:

Agreed. My focus was more on the woman, who, it appears may be "at fault" for getting a tongue stuck down her throat.  I'd like to not believe her bc I like Franken, and believe her bc she's a woman. Damn gray area.

Slippery slope. 


i remember coming in on a conversation some time back regarding an adult film star

she was claiming the male actor had raped her after she had said no

i guess it begs the question: "when does no mean no?"

and can people remember things differently?

i agree with you both in the sense that it is better to have conversation than not

slippery indeed
meower

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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 7:34am

 islander wrote:

I'm uncomfortable too, but it brings up some of the challenges with this series of events. Is there ever a place for shared accountability? Is there a time/place where lecherousness Should be expected - I'm thinking rock stars/groupies here  Maybe to a lesser extent sports stars.  If you go to a hotel room with Gene Simmons,  I'd still say you have the right not to be groped/raped/harrased, but I think there should be some accountability too, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that he's asking you up there for a cup of tea and a chat about stage decorations for the next tour. 

I don't know how to quantify this and balance it out, but especially in circumstances with humans and sex it is a lot more complicated than the very binary choices we are usually presented with. It's more than just who do you believe. I'm willing to assign more of the problem and responsibility  to men because we are obviously more of the problem. But I'm unwilling to say "if men would just control themselves this would all be fine". 

Franken was basically a rock star. He was in the entertainment industry, working in a strange land, in a stressful environment, with people that were apparently testing boundaries/ exploring norms. I think the picture is obviously in poor taste, but a lot of good comedy is in poor taste, and that's what they were doing..  The kiss is a bit worse, but even if it was exactly as she said, while bad I don't think rises to the level of pearl clutching that we are putting towards it. He's a senator now and should be held to a different standard.  But all indications are that he has performed to this higher standard since this incident. Add in here right wing history, other behavior on the tour, and I have a hard time calling for his head now.  

I used to have to occasionally reprimand people at work. It ran the gamut and It was my call on how to handle it. I handled everything from "immediate dismissal, arrange for security and walk them out" to an e-mail saying "you've been late twice this week, get it together".  If I were handling this situation, I'd call Al into my office, close the door so everyone knew it was serious, then say "dude, you know you screwed up right?", he would say "yes, and I'm really sorry. It won't happen again", and I'd say "it better not", then we would spend a few more minutes talking about work bs so everyone knew I was giving the matter serious attention it deserved.   If it were Bill Clinton, I would have fired him on the spot.  If it were Roy Moore, I would have needed security to keep me from getting into more serious trouble.    

Here's where this gets really hard for me - where do we draw the line? And how many lines do we draw? and who gets to decide which side of the line something falls on? And what if something is right on the line?  Because if we say any transgression is wrong (and unforgivable), you'll probably have to just separate men and women completely.   But I want to respect the rights of all people, women especially, and say that you should always have the right to feel safe in your person. I also want people to be responsible for themselves and have accountability for their actions.  So now we have a problem where you can't put three points of a triangle on the same line.  This is the messy complicated world we live in. Absolutes rarely are. 

 
Agreed. My focus was more on the woman, who, it appears may be "at fault" for getting a tongue stuck down her throat.  I'd like to not believe her bc I like Franken, and believe her bc she's a woman. Damn gray area.

Slippery slope.

 


islander
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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 7:28am

 meower wrote:

Something about these posts make me feel uncomfortable.



 
I'm uncomfortable too, but it brings up some of the challenges with this series of events. Is there ever a place for shared accountability? Is there a time/place where lecherousness Should be expected - I'm thinking rock stars/groupies here  Maybe to a lesser extent sports stars.  If you go to a hotel room with Gene Simmons,  I'd still say you have the right not to be groped/raped/harrased, but I think there should be some accountability too, I don't think it is reasonable to assume that he's asking you up there for a cup of tea and a chat about stage decorations for the next tour. 

I don't know how to quantify this and balance it out, but especially in circumstances with humans and sex it is a lot more complicated than the very binary choices we are usually presented with. It's more than just who do you believe. I'm willing to assign more of the problem and responsibility  to men because we are obviously more of the problem. But I'm unwilling to say "if men would just control themselves this would all be fine". 

Franken was basically a rock star. He was in the entertainment industry, working in a strange land, in a stressful environment, with people that were apparently testing boundaries/ exploring norms. I think the picture is obviously in poor taste, but a lot of good comedy is in poor taste, and that's what they were doing..  The kiss is a bit worse, but even if it was exactly as she said, while bad I don't think rises to the level of pearl clutching that we are putting towards it. He's a senator now and should be held to a different standard.  But all indications are that he has performed to this higher standard since this incident. Add in here right wing history, other behavior on the tour, and I have a hard time calling for his head now.  

I used to have to occasionally reprimand people at work. It ran the gamut and It was my call on how to handle it. I handled everything from "immediate dismissal, arrange for security and walk them out" to an e-mail saying "you've been late twice this week, get it together".  If I were handling this situation, I'd call Al into my office, close the door so everyone knew it was serious, then say "dude, you know you screwed up right?", he would say "yes, and I'm really sorry. It won't happen again", and I'd say "it better not", then we would spend a few more minutes talking about work bs so everyone knew I was giving the matter serious attention it deserved.   If it were Bill Clinton, I would have fired him on the spot.  If it were Roy Moore, I would have needed security to keep me from getting into more serious trouble.    

Here's where this gets really hard for me - where do we draw the line? And how many lines do we draw? and who gets to decide which side of the line something falls on? And what if something is right on the line?  Because if we say any transgression is wrong (and unforgivable), you'll probably have to just separate men and women completely.   But I want to respect the rights of all people, women especially, and say that you should always have the right to feel safe in your person. I also want people to be responsible for themselves and have accountability for their actions.  So now we have a problem where you can't put three points of a triangle on the same line.  This is the messy complicated world we live in. Absolutes rarely are. 
aflanigan
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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 6:28am

 kurtster wrote:

Yes I read the snopes entry in its entirety.  No I did not click on the included link.  I took the snopes article at face value.

Like I did say, I'll wait to see where the plaques end up.  That will settle the issue for me.  Actions do mean more than words more often than not.

And as proc mentioned below, its a church not a government facility, so they can do whatever they want.  I'll let you keep track of where the plaques end up though.  You're closer to them than me.

 
{#Roflol}{#Roflol}{#Roflol}

So you get your panties in a twist about some fake news, don't bother to check out the church's published "reply", decide to justify this by backpedaling to say it's whether they follow through on their promise you're now concerned with, and then expect others to "keep track of it" for you????

You are a piece of work. Trump could learn a thing or two from you, I'm thinking.

 
{#Roflol}{#Roflol}{#Roflol}


meower

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Posted: Nov 20, 2017 - 4:47am

 Steely_D wrote:
Someone gathered up a few more pics and some discussion about the Al Franken topic.

 

Something about these posts make me feel uncomfortable.


Steely_D
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Posted: Nov 19, 2017 - 9:13pm

Someone gathered up a few more pics and some discussion about the Al Franken topic.
kurtster

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Posted: Nov 18, 2017 - 2:56pm

 aflanigan wrote:

Did you even look at the snopes entry, which included a link to the letter Christ Church sent its members explaining the process followed in reaching their decision?

Willful ignorance gets boring really fast.

 
Yes I read the snopes entry in its entirety.  No I did not click on the included link.  I took the snopes article at face value.

Like I did say, I'll wait to see where the plaques end up.  That will settle the issue for me.  Actions do mean more than words more often than not.

And as proc mentioned below, its a church not a government facility, so they can do whatever they want.  I'll let you keep track of where the plaques end up though.  You're closer to them than me.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 10:22am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Doesn't change things, but if you thought this Tweeden v. Franken thing was just another #metoo story, a spontaneous, organic press release, then ha ha ha ha ha I knew it.
 
So we'll believe the story until we don't. Al's not contesting it, so it's true enough. But seriously the Russians are everywhere. It's a shitty "Tom Clancy-with-" conspiracy novel.

 
Ayup.
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 10:08am

Doesn't change things, but if you thought this Tweeden v. Franken thing was just another #metoo story, a spontaneous, organic press release, then ha ha ha ha ha I knew it.
 
So we'll believe the story until we don't. Al's not contesting it, so it's true enough. But seriously the Russians are everywhere. It's a shitty "Tom Clancy-with-" conspiracy novel.
aflanigan
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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 9:32am

 kurtster wrote:

I'd call it inconclusive without a reply from the church. 
 
Did you even look at the snopes entry, which included a link to the letter Christ Church sent its members explaining the process followed in reaching their decision?

Willful ignorance gets boring really fast.
kcar

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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 9:04am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Damn, you're funny.
 
"Kurt, you're on fire."
"I have heard otherwise."
"Kurt, I can see flames shooting from your orifices."
"I'll need some corroboration."
"Kurt, the fire department is on its way, they say when a person is shooting fire from his orifices, he's most likely aflame."
"Without their first-hand appraisal, I'd call it inconclusive."

 


Kurt isn't on fire until The Donald says so. 


photo of dumpster fire with photo of Trump photoshopped on front of dumpster

"3 Exodus, Kurt!"

Red_Dragon

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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 8:23am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Damn, you're funny.
 
"Kurt, you're on fire."
"I have heard otherwise."
"Kurt, I can see flames shooting from your orifices."
"I'll need some corroboration."
"Kurt, the fire department is on its way, they say when a person is shooting fire from his orifices, he's most likely aflame."
"Without their first-hand appraisal, I'd call it inconclusive."

 

Proclivities
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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 8:18am

 kurtster wrote:

Thanks.  First rebuttal I've seen so far.  I'd call it inconclusive without a reply from the church.  I guess the proof will be when the plaques are relocated and where.

 
Remember though, churches are not governmental entities, they can pretty much display or not display any plaque or image they desire, well, except for the religions which prohibit "graven images".  This is not a case of "the government (or liberals) removing history" or whatever spins some are trying to put on it.


ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 8:07am

 kurtster wrote:

 I'd call it inconclusive 
 
Damn, you're funny.
 
"Kurt, you're on fire."
"I have heard otherwise."
"Kurt, I can see flames shooting from your orifices."
"I'll need some corroboration."
"Kurt, the fire department is on its way, they say when a person is shooting fire from his orifices, he's most likely aflame."
"Without their first-hand appraisal, I'd call it inconclusive."
maryte
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Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 8:04am

For me, it is also about the big picture...
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