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kurtster

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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 6:41pm

 Steely_D wrote:

Fun to say, but she neither scared or scarred me so I'll suggest that there were some people who didn't buy into that media-made simplistic narrative.
I simply didn't want history books to say Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama-Clinton. I would've voted Huntsman, if he'd made it that far.
 
And I stated here that I didn't want Bush or Clinton when there were still 17 candidates on the repub side of the street.  Anyone but those two.

You got your wish and I got mine.  I just got a little more than you did out of that tho 
Steely_D
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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 4:33pm

 miamizsun wrote:
well he only had to bamboozle half of his voters

hillary scared/scarred the rest...
 
Fun to say, but she neither scared or scarred me so I'll suggest that there were some people who didn't buy into that media-made simplistic narrative.
I simply didn't want history books to say Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama-Clinton. I would've voted Huntsman, if he'd made it that far.


kurtster

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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 4:24pm

 miamizsun wrote:


well he only had to bamboozle half of his voters

hillary scared/scarred the rest...

 
{#Yes}  {#Lol}
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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 3:35pm

 cc_rider wrote:


When I say he damaged the Presidency, I mean him permanently affected the 'aura', for lack of a better term, of the Office. 

FDR had at least one mistress. JFK had a steady stream of bimbos going through the White House. But both hid their sins behind the respect afforded the position. Certainly both had their share of equally tawdry policy decisions (Bay of Pigs ring a bell?), but they were still The President.
Nixon pulled back the curtain on the sordid realities of the office, and like you said, paid dearly. He publicly disgraced the office: his predecessors were disgraceful behind closed doors, and largely got away with it.

You and I are in 100% agreement about the current resident of the White House. What I can't fathom is how he suckered so many people. Bread and circuses, I guess.
c.

 

well he only had to bamboozle half of his voters

hillary scared/scarred the rest...
cc_rider
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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 3:18pm

 VV wrote:

Perhaps it is lost on me, but in what way would you say that Nixon changed the rules? Nixon clearly didn't play by them or perhaps even acknowledge that they applied to him. Nixon ignored the rules and paid a steep price for it. That's not rewriting the rules but simply displaying an ignorance and/or arrogance as to their applicability to the position. To me, Nixon is a study in what can happen when you run afoul of rules.

Trump doesn't play by many rules either and his base gives him a pass on this under the most flimsiest of guisies: "We need to let Trump be Trump". I don't think it is this so much that the "genius" Trump just doesn't want to play by any rules because he can't comprehend them or even want to. Too much effort and energy. Rules are for "losers". He isn't interested in knowing how Government is actually set up to function. He wants to simply dictate from on-high what should happen and have everyone else do his bidding in a Constitutionality-be-damned approach as long as he gets the results he's expecting in the moment. If it doesn't turn out as expected... well then of course it's someone else's fault (Democrats, Deep State, Clinton... whatever). He often creates chaos because chaos is the only thing he can create in this scenario. Anything else... is a happy accident.
 
 

When I say he damaged the Presidency, I mean him permanently affected the 'aura', for lack of a better term, of the Office. 

FDR had at least one mistress. JFK had a steady stream of bimbos going through the White House. But both hid their sins behind the respect afforded the position. Certainly both had their share of equally tawdry policy decisions (Bay of Pigs ring a bell?), but they were still The President.
Nixon pulled back the curtain on the sordid realities of the office, and like you said, paid dearly. He publicly disgraced the office: his predecessors were disgraceful behind closed doors, and largely got away with it.

You and I are in 100% agreement about the current resident of the White House. What I can't fathom is how he suckered so many people. Bread and circuses, I guess.
c.


kurtster

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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 2:50pm

 VV wrote:

Perhaps it is lost on me, but in what way would you say that Nixon changed the rules? Nixon clearly didn't play by them or perhaps even acknowledge that they applied to him. Nixon ignored the rules and paid a steep price for it. That's not rewriting the rules but simply displaying an ignorance and/or arrogance as to their applicability to the position. To me, Nixon is a study in what can happen when you run afoul of rules.

Trump doesn't play by many rules either and his base gives him a pass on this under the most flimsiest of guisies: "We need to let Trump be Trump". I don't think it is this so much that the "genius" Trump just doesn't want to play by any rules because he doesn't comprehend them or even want to. Too much effort and energy. Rules are for "losers". He isn't interested in knowing how Government is actually set up to function. He wants to simply dictate from on-high what should happen with everyone doing his bidding and a Constitutionality-be-damned approach as long as he gets the results he's expecting in the moment. He creates chaos because chaos is the only thing he can create in this scenario. Anything else... is a happy accident.

 
Speaking strictly regarding Nixon ...  When Watergate broke and everything went nuts, after the dust settled, the common wisdom looking back was that Nixon didn't do anything new at all.  He simply got caught.  It was LBJ who installed the famous recording system that got RMN in trouble IIRC. 

Nixon didn't change the rules, he played by the rules.  He just got sloppy and careless.  An Imperial Presidency.

There are two sets of rules.  The rulers don't play the rules that apply to us.  Look at the Clinton's.  They are playing by the same rules as did Nixon, et al.  Only they got sloppy, too and with a little luck, they just might suffer some consequences.  If they had won this election, they never would be under any reviews and would have gotten away with everything they have done so far.  I know, I know, the Clinton's didn't do anything really wrong in the eyes of nearly everyone and should be allowed to fade away with all their cash, especially since they lost.  That should be painful enough for them in the eyes of most.  We'll see.  But from where I'm sitting and looking, I see some serious questions that they are going to have to answer for, now that all the people who have been covering their backside for so many years are finally being exposed.

Ta' ....

Edit:  since we're speaking of RMN, we have another similarity, an example of a wonton imperial bureaucracy.  RMN had his famous 27 minutes of missing tape.  Seems the FBI has an oops, gremlins, the dog ate my homework thing going with missing texts between 2 key employees.  Oh my, stuff happens ... same as it always does ...


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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 2:29pm

 cc_rider wrote:
 Fair analogy, but not entirely accurate. Chess has always had rigidly defined rules, but other games/sports, along with politics, have changing and evolving rules. Even with a set of rules written down, such as the Code of Hammurabi, The Torah, Bible, or Constitution, they are constantly reinterpreted, and things that seemed inviolate can become normalized.

Nixon damaged the Presidency in ways that still ripple today. Trump has damaged it too, but hopefully to such an absurd degree the pendulum will swing back.

 
Perhaps it is lost on me, but in what way would you say that Nixon changed the rules? Nixon clearly didn't play by them or perhaps even acknowledge that they applied to him. Nixon ignored the rules and paid a steep price for it. That's not rewriting the rules but simply displaying an ignorance and/or arrogance as to their applicability to the position. To me, Nixon is a study in what can happen when you run afoul of rules.

Trump doesn't play by many rules either and his base gives him a pass on this under the most flimsiest of guisies: "We need to let Trump be Trump". I don't think it is this so much that the "genius" Trump just doesn't want to play by any rules because he can't comprehend them or even want to. Too much effort and energy. Rules are for "losers". He isn't interested in knowing how Government is actually set up to function. He wants to simply dictate from on-high what should happen and have everyone else do his bidding in a Constitutionality-be-damned approach as long as he gets the results he's expecting in the moment. If it doesn't turn out as expected... well then of course it's someone else's fault (Democrats, Deep State, Clinton... whatever). He often creates chaos because chaos is the only thing he can create in this scenario. Anything else... is a happy accident.
 


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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 8:54am

 VV wrote:

Sorry, you don't get to make that judgement. "Everything matters". If nothing mattered this thread would have died out long ago. 

Trump doesn't get to rewrite the book on how a presidency is conducted. Just like I don't get to make up new rules for chess and expect everyone to play the game a different way based on my new rules. He's an outlier... a cosmic event like a meteor strike. His time will pass and (with it all the mass confusion and mismanagement) to eventually be replaced by a competent president (Republican or Democrat). He effectively tapped into the resentments of Republicans but it's pretty clear to anyone with eyes and a pulse that he isn't the man to lead his own base. He isn't the one to execute on those resentments -or- for that matter on most of the promises that he made. 
 
  Fair analogy, but not entirely accurate. Chess has always had rigidly defined rules, but other games/sports, along with politics, have changing and evolving rules. Even with a set of rules written down, such as the Code of Hammurabi, The Torah, Bible, or Constitution, they are constantly reinterpreted, and things that seemed inviolate can become normalized.

Nixon damaged the Presidency in ways that still ripple today. Trump has damaged it too, but hopefully to such an absurd degree the pendulum will swing back.


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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 8:17am

 kurtster wrote:
You're both wrong.  Has nothing to do with Benghazi.  We're light years past that.

Its just that we have reached the point that it doesn't matter anymore.  Everything is what it is now.  Live with it.

 
Sorry, you don't get to make that judgement. "Everything matters". If nothing mattered this thread would have died out long ago. 

Trump doesn't get to rewrite the book on how a presidency is conducted. Just like I don't get to make up new rules for chess and expect everyone to play the game a different way based on my new rules. He's an outlier... a cosmic event like a meteor strike. His time will pass (and with it all the mass confusion and mismanagement) to eventually be replaced by a competent president (Republican or Democrat). He effectively tapped into the resentments of Republicans but it's pretty clear to anyone with eyes and a pulse that he isn't the man to lead his own base. He isn't the one to execute on those resentments -or- for that matter on most of the promises that he made. 
 


Red_Dragon

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Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 1:45pm

 Steely_D wrote:

I think that just means that there's no rational, thoughtful, explanation of how he's behaving as President. It's impossible to defend him against all the things that he's done, trying to frame him as a proper American President.

Negatives thus far off the top of my head:
Didn't release taxes
Sons et al engaging with Russia for election
Ruining relationships with other nations
Golfing incessantly at Mar a Lago - with its associated costs to the taxpayer
The association/hiring of incompetent staff
The lack of hiring into governmental positions, leaving large numbers of them unfilled
Inarticulate, contradictory public speaking
The tweeting
No wall, in any form
Tax reform that's clearly skewed to help himself, his family, and his associates
His truncated work schedule at the White House
No improvement of the nation's healthcare system, and a bit of worsening it

On the plus side:
There's that stock market
Shows the nation how important it is to pay attention to politics
Gave the "non-elites" a chance to put a guy just like them into office for a change
Maintaining the pressure on Hillary!
 

 
Precisely; there is no defending such a piece of human garbage. A piece of human garbage with serious mental issues and access to the nuclear codes.
kcar

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Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 12:56pm

 kurtster wrote:

The point is that logic and reason have totally left the building in all things regarding Trump. The Marquess of Queensberry has also left the building.  No holds are barred.   He is no longer considered a person.  He has become an object of which everyone is blaming him for everything that is wrong.  Deserved and undeserved.  We have reached the peak of dysfunction as a country.

I just happened to watch SNL last night for the first time this season.  I have never felt so old and irrelevant as I did last night.  Who and what the hell is Troye Sivan ?  But there were some real pearls of wisdom shared last night in the true old original  SNL way.

.
 


"The point is that logic and reason have totally left the building in all things regarding Trump."

It's all Trump's fault!  {#Whipit}
Seriously, though: Trump invites and deserves a great deal of the criticism leveled at him. At this point, I believe that Trump is shifting his position on an issue from one week to the next, sometimes even one day to the next.

It's possible that Trump is easily distracted and persuaded by sources like Fox and Friends. It's also possible that Trump is deliberately testing differing positions on a subject to test public reaction and to appeal to his base by providing them with conflict and drama reminiscent of reality TV shows like "The Apprentice."

Dave Leonhardt of the New York Times recently pointed his readers again to an op-ed written by Italian journalist Luigi Zingales who drew parallels between the ways that Trump and former Italian Prime Minister (and billionaire) Silvio Berlusconi handled their opposition:

The Right Way to Resist Trump

Mr. Berlusconi was able to govern Italy for as long as he did mostly thanks to the incompetence of his opposition. It was so rabidly obsessed with his personality that any substantive political debate disappeared; it focused only on personal attacks, the effect of which was to increase Mr. Berlusconi’s popularity. His secret was an ability to set off a Pavlovian reaction among his leftist opponents, which engendered instantaneous sympathy in most moderate voters. Mr. Trump is no different.

We saw this dynamic during the presidential campaign. Hillary Clinton was so focused on explaining how bad Mr. Trump was that she too often didn’t promote her own ideas, to make the positive case for voting for her. The news media was so intent on ridiculing Mr. Trump’s behavior that it ended up providing him with free advertising.

Leonhardt adds his own thoughts in a separate piece:

"Democrats fare best when they fight Trump on policy grounds that can win over swing voters. That ground tends to be economic. Trump favors government cuts and corporate deregulation that would hurt many Americans. He has also failed to deliver on his promises to bring back factory jobs. “If you are a Democrat, and you are not talking about this every day,” Ronald Klain, the longtime Democratic operative, wrote, referring to Trump’s broken promises to Carrier workers in Indiana, “you are not using the most effective argument we have.” "

Pundits offered the same advice about Sarah Palin when she was still a political force: stop attacking the person's behavior and personality because doing so just earns that person sympathy from supporters. Trump and Palin became voices of the people, speaking truth against corrupt political elites, after those personal attacks. Force the person to talk in detail about policies, especially economic ones that will affect the average family.  

Trump's supporters don't care whether he changes his mind on a policy matter from one day to the next. They're looking for him to be blunt, abrasive and confrontational. Trump's opponents have to stop questioning Trump's sanity, diligence and statements. They have to force him to offer detailed policies and explanations—something that he didn't do during health care reform or tax reform. 

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Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 12:00pm

 Steely_D wrote:

I think that just means that there's no rational, thoughtful, explanation of how he's behaving as President. It's impossible to defend him against all the things that he's done, trying to frame him as a proper American President.

Negatives thus far off the top of my head:
Didn't release taxes
Sons et al engaging with Russia for election
Ruining relationships with other nations
Golfing incessantly at Mar a Lago - with its associated costs to the taxpayer
The association/hiring of incompetent staff
The lack of hiring into governmental positions, leaving large numbers of them unfilled
Inarticulate, contradictory public speaking
The tweeting
No wall, in any form
Tax reform that's clearly skewed to help himself, his family, and his associates
His truncated work schedule at the White House
No improvement of the nation's healthcare system, and a bit of worsening it

On the plus side:
There's that stock market
Shows the nation how important it is to pay attention to politics
Gave the "non-elites" a chance to put a guy just like them into office for a change
Maintaining the pressure on Hillary!
 

 
Three major negatives, ones likely to impact the nation adversely for years after Trump has exited:
attacks on the FBI and the intelligence community in general
attacks on the media — Fake News refrain
fueling the Deep State paranoia — those working in the government, like those in the media, are enemies of the people 


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Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 11:36am

 kurtster wrote:
You're both wrong.  Has nothing to do with Benghazi.  We're light years past that.

Its just that we have reached the point that it doesn't matter anymore.  Everything is what it is now.  Live with it.

 
I think that just means that there's no rational, thoughtful, explanation of how he's behaving as President. It's impossible to defend him against all the things that he's done, trying to frame him as a proper American President.

Negatives thus far off the top of my head:
Didn't release taxes
Sons et al engaging with Russia for election
Ruining relationships with other nations
Golfing incessantly at Mar a Lago - with its associated costs to the taxpayer
The association/hiring of incompetent staff
The lack of hiring into governmental positions, leaving large numbers of them unfilled
Inarticulate, contradictory public speaking
The tweeting
No wall, in any form
Tax reform that's clearly skewed to help himself, his family, and his associates
His truncated work schedule at the White House
No improvement of the nation's healthcare system, and a bit of worsening it

On the plus side:
There's that stock market
Shows the nation how important it is to pay attention to politics
Gave the "non-elites" a chance to put a guy just like them into office for a change
Maintaining the pressure on Hillary!
 
kurtster

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Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 10:43am

You're both wrong.  Has nothing to do with Benghazi.  We're light years past that.

Its just that we have reached the point that it doesn't matter anymore.  Everything is what it is now.  Live with it.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 9:34am

 islander wrote:

Try the short form:  BENGHAZI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
Or: "but, her emails"
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Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 8:56am

 Steely_D wrote:

I totally don't get the point.

 
Try the short form:  BENGHAZI !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
kurtster

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Posted: Jan 21, 2018 - 5:50am

 Steely_D wrote:

I totally don't get the point.

 
The point is that logic and reason have totally left the building in all things regarding Trump. The Marquess of Queensberry has also left the building.  No holds are barred.   He is no longer considered a person.  He has become an object of which everyone is blaming him for everything that is wrong.  Deserved and undeserved.  We have reached the peak of dysfunction as a country.

I just happened to watch SNL last night for the first time this season.  I have never felt so old and irrelevant as I did last night.  Who and what the hell is Troye Sivan ?  But there were some real pearls of wisdom shared last night in the true old original  SNL way.

.

Steely_D
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Posted: Jan 20, 2018 - 11:18pm

 kurtster wrote:

Clearly Trump....

...anyway because ...
 
I totally don't get the point.


kurtster

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Posted: Jan 20, 2018 - 7:00pm

 kcar wrote:

The NYT ran a piece on the test: 

Trump Passed a Cognitive Exam. What Does That Really Mean?

Screening tests like these cannot rule out declines in reasoning or memory, or difficulties with planning or judgment. The test is just too blunt an instrument, and for many high-functioning people, too easy.

...
 “If you are a Harvard professor, you could have a lot of decline before it starts to show up in cognitive tests,” said Dr. Eric Siemers, who until recently headed the development of Alzheimer’s drugs at Eli Lilly.

 
Clearly Trump is neither a high functioning individual nor a Harvard professor.  He's a blunt instrument.  So the results say that he is still a blunt instrument, with early onset Alzheimer's if I read everything and everybody correctly.   And he is obese with heart disease according to CNN's esteemed Dr. Gupta, who has examined Trump's test results.  Time for the 25th Amendment.  Chop, chop !!

Drat, we can't use the 25th because the government is shut down.  Maybe Trump isn't as stupid as he looks after all, cuz the way things are going, the government will be shut down every three or four weeks, forever ...  Kim is already warming up his missiles cuz the USA is closed and Hawaii ain't on his list.  Clearly the best target would be the Yellowstone Caldera.  Extinction event with one poorly aimed missile.  Direct hit unnecessary.  Close would work there just fine.  

ymwv ...  Sweet dreams ... and Trump is still fat and demented, right ?  or is that Kim ?  Who cares anymore anyway because ...

.



kcar

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Posted: Jan 20, 2018 - 3:36pm

 maryte wrote:
This was the test that was administered to determine Lord Dampnut's mental soundness.

An OT I know administers this test to determine if someone would be safe living home alone, not to determine his/her soundness of judgment in leading a country.

 


The NYT ran a piece on the test: 

Trump Passed a Cognitive Exam. What Does That Really Mean?

Screening tests like these cannot rule out declines in reasoning or memory, or difficulties with planning or judgment. The test is just too blunt an instrument, and for many high-functioning people, too easy.

“You wouldn’t make a diagnosis in either direction based on a screening exam,” said Dr. Ronald Petersen, director of the Alzheimer’s Disease Research Center at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. (He emphasized that he was speaking in general terms, not specifically about President Trump’s case.)


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But shouldn’t a perfect score be reassuring?

Maybe. But the test is not that difficult, and the problem with a single test is that the doctor doesn’t know what the subject’s starting point was. Usually it’s the trend over time that suggests a problem.

 “If you are a Harvard professor, you could have a lot of decline before it starts to show up in cognitive tests,” said Dr. Eric Siemers, who until recently headed the development of Alzheimer’s drugs at Eli Lilly.




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