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Derplahoma Questions and Points of Interest - cc_rider - Jun 14, 2018 - 8:52am
 
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Lowell - meower - Jun 13, 2018 - 6:54am
 
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MoveOn.org/George Soros Watch - R_P - Jun 12, 2018 - 8:44pm
 
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 12:21pm

Baby steps...
U.S. Plans to Withdraw From UN Human Rights Council Today
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 11:47am

 kcar wrote:
 R_P wrote:

So what you appear to be saying is that illegal immigrants are pieces of shit, and if they bring their children they're even bigger pieces of shit.
 

Even though those immigrants are often fleeing horrific conditions in their home country.  

spammer, do you have train to hate a whole group of people? Like you'd train for an triathlon? 

 
No, Spammer have no train.My Grandpa was an engineer for the B&O railroad however.

His Father was an immigrant and learned how to use the language and obey the laws of the country that he emigrated to.

You should try.

 Thank you for your kindness and understanding.


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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 11:44am

The grabber-in-chief...

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 11:06am

 Steely_D wrote:
Well, no, but I talk to you anyway.
 
 
One more point that occurred to me a bit later offline. As you pointed out, one part of the perspective is usually about limited shared resources and who should be entitled to them. However, as we can see with the topic's tweet yesterday on Germany, for others it's about their supposed "culture and heritage" that somehow gets endangered and must be protected.

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 10:56am

 R_P wrote:
Do all people here conform to your 3 items? 
 
 
Well, no, but I talk to you anyway.

 


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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 10:54am

 Steely_D wrote:
That's the big mistake. Are the people on social media 1) sincere 2) informed 3) clear headed?

Present company excepted, they're just as likely to be hot-headed high school boys looking for lulz as they are to be little old ladies sitting in their sewing room afraid of the foreigners. Social media isn't the place to have any sort of discussion about anything, really. 
 
That depends on which parts of social media you visit, and to whom you're connected. The more general parts (like newspaper pages) have a general audience, the more specific parts (like an anthropology group) have a more specific audience. However I see good and bad discussions on both, much like anywhere else.
 
Do all people here conform to your 3 items?

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 10:16am

 black321 wrote:
 Yes, a generalization of the media...but isn't the vast majority of the media consumed by the public "corporate media?"
 
Depends on how you measure the majority. Revenue? That's one metric, but doesn't necessarily equate to influence or credibility.
 
Readership? How many Twitter followers does Pamela Anderson have? The NYT?
 
Words spewed? There are probably fan fiction authors surpassing all of Time-Warner.



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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 9:57am

 cc_rider wrote:

What? From an Administration that changes its positions, and the reasons therefore, daily (sometimes hourly)? Does anybody think this wacky 'Space Force' idea was well-planned? A whole new branch of the military, really? We already spend more on weaponry (and support thereof) than the next five or six countries combined. That includes our mortal enemies, whoever they are today.

There will be no warning, fair or otherwise.
c.

 
and their ought to be better ways to discourage illegal immigration than that tactic of separating kids.  As for the space force...sounded better when he thought it up on the sh#$ter.
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 9:55am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 black321 wrote:
What's the media's ultimate goal?  Truth?  Serve a political view?  Increasing viewership and profits.  There's the only real bias.  Not to discount the truth and politics, but those are secondary.  
 
The media writ large has no more goals than the public or the the immigrants. The media is a broad collection of people with nothing in common but that they publish. Fox News is in the media. The Food Babe is in the media. The Nation is in the media. When you post on the RP forums so are you.
 
Individuals in the media have goals as diverse as they are.
 
Companies in the media do have a goal: to stay in business and make money. They have brands that include their political perspectives that are part of achieving that goal.
 
People criticizing bias and partisanship in the media often get sloppy about distinguishing between the players and the playing field. It's understandable; the media (in general) is less politically diverse than the public as a whole just as the RP forums aren't as diverse as the public at large. It's important for those of us who aren't part of a political monoculture need to keep that in mind and it's fair to point out when we fail at it, but it's also important to understand where that generalization comes from. It's not a delusion, it's pattern recognition.



 Yes, a generalization of the media...but isn't the vast majority of the media consumed by the public "corporate media?"
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 9:22am

 Lazy8 wrote:

The media writ large has no more goals than the public or the the immigrants. The media is a broad collection of people with nothing in common but that they publish. Fox News is in the media. The Food Babe is in the media. The Nation is in the media. When you post on the RP forums so are you.
 
Individuals in the media have goals as diverse as they are.
 
Companies in the media do have a goal: to stay in business and make money. They have brands that include their political perspectives that are part of achieving that goal.
 
People criticizing bias and partisanship in the media often get sloppy about distinguishing between the players and the playing field. It's understandable; the media (in general) is less politically diverse than the public as a whole just as the RP forums aren't as diverse as the public at large. It's important for those of us who aren't part of a political monoculture need to keep that in mind and it's fair to point out when we fail at it, but it's also important to understand where that generalization comes from. It's not a delusion, it's pattern recognition.


 
Generalization (i.e. seeing patterns that permit prediction) is a pretty useful tool, but it, like any tool, is indeed subject to abuse.

In the world of engineering and physics, scientific generalizations (e.g. theories, predictive formulae based on empirical data) tend to trend towards a high degree of accuracy with respect to specific circumstances.

When it comes to irrational humans, not so much.

Some of the generalizations we toss about regarding human behavior are nowhere near the legitimacy of empirically based predictions. They can be, and sometimes are, based on acquired prejudices, and are actually contrary to the actual patterns that observation/data collection demonstrate. Yet we cling to them.
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 8:40am

 R_P wrote:

It's not rocket science, seeing how it's a pretty common perspective, not confined to one place or time. Take a stroll down any social media and you're bound see it in many varieties. Or read some history.
 
That's the big mistake. Are the people on social media 1) sincere 2) informed 3) clear headed?

Present company excepted, they're just as likely to be hot-headed high school boys looking for lulz as they are to be little old ladies sitting in their sewing room afraid of the foreigners. Social media isn't the place to have any sort of discussion about anything, really.


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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 8:25am

 black321 wrote:
What's the media's ultimate goal?  Truth?  Serve a political view?  Increasing viewership and profits.  There's the only real bias.  Not to discount the truth and politics, but those are secondary.  
 
The media writ large has no more goals than the public or the the immigrants. The media is a broad collection of people with nothing in common but that they publish. Fox News is in the media. The Food Babe is in the media. The Nation is in the media. When you post on the RP forums so are you.
 
Individuals in the media have goals as diverse as they are.
 
Companies in the media do have a goal: to stay in business and make money. They have brands that include their political perspectives that are part of achieving that goal.
 
People criticizing bias and partisanship in the media often get sloppy about distinguishing between the players and the playing field. It's understandable; the media (in general) is less politically diverse than the public as a whole just as the RP forums aren't as diverse as the public at large. It's important for those of us who aren't part of a political monoculture need to keep that in mind and it's fair to point out when we fail at it, but it's also important to understand where that generalization comes from. It's not a delusion, it's pattern recognition.

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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 7:49am

 black321 wrote:

This would make some sense IF there was some fair warning that this would be implemented going forward.  Now that its out there, it's tough to support since it was implemented so badly.  

 
What? From an Administration that changes its positions, and the reasons therefore, daily (sometimes hourly)? Does anybody think this wacky 'Space Force' idea was well-planned? A whole new branch of the military, really? We already spend more on weaponry (and support thereof) than the next five or six countries combined. That includes our mortal enemies, whoever they are today.

There will be no warning, fair or otherwise.
c.
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 7:43am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 steeler wrote:
Hence, my point made earlier that it is not the job of the media to "prosecute" Trump, which has been implied in comments today casting some blame on the media for inundating the public with so much Trump coverage that the public "jurors" begin filtering it all out or even begin sympathizing with Trump as somehow being the victim — which, of course, he claims to be all the time; at least when he is not claiming to be the victor..   

Many have commented on the "normalization" campaign of Trump .  Ruth Marcus of the Post has beat that drum regularly.  She argues that all of it needs to continue to be pointed out by people like her because of the danger that it otherwise becomes normal. 

So, we see 2 views of what is happening and the net results.        
 
Can we please drop the pretense that the media is serving some sacred function for Society and that they deserve reverence? They are businesses catering to clientele. They are partisan. They are not referees, they are players.
 
I'll hasten to add that I have absolutely no problem with this—it's human. Every story comes from a perspective. If you're honest about your perspective then the audience knows what color filter they're looking thru and what they're likely to be missing in the picture. When we insist on maintaining the fiction that there is such a thing as a neutral point of view every partisan feels justified believing his own bullshit.
 
CNN is partisan. The New York Times is partisan. That doesn't make them wrong.
 
They are enthusiastic (if surreptitious) members of the anti-Trump resistance. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Wave that banner! Trump deserves to be resisted.
 
But there are still rules: refrain from lying. Admit when you got the story wrong. Guard against letting your bias lead you to ignore facts, to make them up, to hide the parts of the story that reflect poorly on your side. You can be an honest partisan, and you'll be a more effective partisan. And we need that. We desperately need credible people calling out the crimes and lies of this horrifying lesion on the body politic.
 
What we have now is the normalizing of the cries of "Wolf!" Or if you'd rather, "Nazi!" There are actual wolves. There are actual nazis. When everyone who isn't on Team Blue is a wolf, a Nazi, a racist, simultaneously overly-pro-Israel and anti-semitic, Islamaphobic and sucking up to the Saudis, then there's no more alarm to raise. The alarm is always on, always on red alert. It's just more noise.


 
What's the media's ultimate goal?  Truth?  Serve a political view?  Increasing viewership and profits.  There's the only real bias.  Not to discount the truth and politics, but those are secondary.  
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 7:40am

 Steely_D wrote:

It's always good form to try to see the other person's perspective, even when you disagree. How can you discuss if you don't understand them? So what seems to be their thought process, allowing something so cruel?

This horrific move by Trump is intentionally horrific, in order to scare illegal immigrants and dissuade them. Why? To save the legal, existing Americans from being overrun by illegal immigrants that will use up legal Americans' resources. It is for the long-term good of the nation.

So although this is monstrous, in the big picture those who support it believe that their first obligation is to the country and not to people coming in illegally. 

This means that you will not be able to sway them from their attempt to save millions by hurting thousands. If you've seen Infinity War, this is similar to the Thanos approach.
  

 
This would make some sense IF there was some fair warning that this would be implemented going forward.  Now that its out there, it's tough to support since it was implemented so badly.  
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 1:42am

 Steely_D wrote:
It's always good form to try to see the other person's perspective, even when you disagree. How can you discuss if you don't understand them? So what seems to be their thought process, allowing something so cruel?

This horrific move by Trump is intentionally horrific, in order to scare illegal immigrants and dissuade them. Why? To save the legal, existing Americans from being overrun by illegal immigrants that will use up legal Americans' resources. It is for the long-term good of the nation.

So although this is monstrous, in the big picture those who support it believe that their first obligation is to the country and not to people coming in illegally.

This means that you will not be able to sway them from their attempt to save millions by hurting thousands. If you've seen Infinity War, this is similar to the Thanos approach.
 

 
You really nailed it here, this is exactly what it is about. Which is why we really do need to come up with a compromise and implement some real immigration reform and to be honest, this is very well might be what forces Congress hand to do so.  If I thought Trump could hold a steady thought and think ahead for more than 2 minutes, I would commend him for having a plan, but I don't know if I can give him that much credit.
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Posted: Jun 19, 2018 - 12:47am

 Steely_D wrote:


It's always good form to try to see the other person's perspective, even when you disagree. How can you discuss if you don't understand them? So what seems to be their thought process, allowing something so cruel?

This horrific move by Trump is intentionally horrific, in order to scare illegal immigrants and dissuade them. Why? To save the legal, existing Americans from being overrun by illegal immigrants that will use up legal Americans' resources. It is for the long-term good of the nation.

So although this is monstrous, in the big picture those who support it believe that their first obligation is to the country and not to people coming in illegally. 

This means that you will not be able to sway them from their attempt to save millions by hurting thousands. If you've seen Infinity War, this is similar to the Thanos approach.
  
 

Steely_D, I gather that you're trying to voice the opinions of those who support separating illegal immigrant families with your words below: 


This horrific move by Trump is intentionally horrific, in order to scare illegal immigrants and dissuade them. Why? To save the legal, existing Americans from being overrun by illegal immigrants that will use up legal Americans' resources. It is for the long-term good of the nation.

So although this is monstrous, in the big picture those who support it believe that their first obligation is to the country and not to people coming in illegally. 


I tip my hat to you, but I have to ask: why aren't spammer and kurtster and others who (AFAICT) think this way posting something like what you did above? Why does it fall to you to present that side of the argument? I've been chasing after kurtster for a long time to spell out his thinking and offer support for his opinions. I'm not trying to harass him. I just would like to move towards an intelligent conversation of issues. 

As for your quote above, I'd ask the people who truly believe illegal immmigrants are a threat to and drain on our country a few things: 

1. Do they have any evidence that separating kids from parents will stop the flow of illegal immigrants? Are illegal immigrants aware of this change in policy? If they know about it, is it deterring them from crossing into the US? 

2. Is there a recent change in the state of illegal immigration, such as a dramatic non-seasonal increase in flow, that might been as justification for forcible separation? 

3. Do they have evidence that illegal immigrants are a net drain on the US economy, or a significant threat to safety and security here? The articles on research into this matter that I've read say that illegal immigrants are a net plus for the US economy and not a significant threat. 


It'd be great if we could have discussions around questions like these, instead of quick takes that don't have explanation or support behind them. 


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Posted: Jun 18, 2018 - 11:58pm

 Steely_D wrote:
It's always good form to try to see the other person's perspective, even when you disagree. How can you discuss if you don't understand them? So what seems to be their thought process, allowing something so cruel? (...)
 
It's not rocket science, seeing how it's a pretty common perspective, not confined to one place or time. Take a stroll down any social media and you're bound see it in many varieties. Or read some history.
 
"It's the freeloaders/moochers, stupid. They are the root of all evil."

And it isn't just aimed at immigrants either...
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Posted: Jun 18, 2018 - 11:36pm

 R_P wrote:
So what you appear to be saying is that illegal immigrants are pieces of shit, and if they bring their children they're even bigger pieces of shit.
 
It's always good form to try to see the other person's perspective, even when you disagree. How can you discuss if you don't understand them? So what seems to be their thought process, allowing something so cruel?

This horrific move by Trump is intentionally horrific, in order to scare illegal immigrants and dissuade them. Why? To save the legal, existing Americans from being overrun by illegal immigrants that will use up legal Americans' resources. It is for the long-term good of the nation.

So although this is monstrous, in the big picture those who support it believe that their first obligation is to the country and not to people coming in illegally.

This means that you will not be able to sway them from their attempt to save millions by hurting thousands. If you've seen Infinity War, this is similar to the Thanos approach.
 


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Posted: Jun 18, 2018 - 10:35pm

 R_P wrote:

So what you appear to be saying is that illegal immigrants are pieces of shit, and if they bring their children they're even bigger pieces of shit.
 

Even though those immigrants are often fleeing horrific conditions in their home country.  

spammer, do you have train to hate a whole group of people? Like you'd train for an triathlon? 


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