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The Global War on Terror - Red_Dragon - Oct 23, 2017 - 5:02am
 
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the genographic project - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 19, 2017 - 12:15pm
 
Advertising Gone Mad - miamizsun - Oct 19, 2017 - 11:15am
 
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How to stream FLAC on Alexa? - jarro - Oct 19, 2017 - 2:23am
 
Celebrity Deaths - ptooey - Oct 18, 2017 - 3:48pm
 
Kids say the funniest things - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 18, 2017 - 3:39pm
 
Guns - kurtster - Oct 18, 2017 - 2:39pm
 
Photos you have taken of your walks or hikes. - Antigone - Oct 18, 2017 - 2:26pm
 
Climate Change - miamizsun - Oct 18, 2017 - 11:48am
 
Trump/Palin in 2012 WHY the HELL NOT? - maryte - Oct 18, 2017 - 11:28am
 
The Six Word Story: Do You Have Yours? - Antigone - Oct 18, 2017 - 9:58am
 
Amazing animals! - Coaxial - Oct 18, 2017 - 9:13am
 
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Today in History - Red_Dragon - Oct 18, 2017 - 6:17am
 
::odd but intriguing:: - miamizsun - Oct 18, 2017 - 4:05am
 
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kurtster

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Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 2:39pm

Perhaps if the perp had served more than 2 years of his 25 year sentence, we would not be talking about this now.  Iffen he was locked up the entire 25 years, he wouldn't be getting out until 2032.

I would hold the people who let this guy out early responsible for the horrific event we are discussing.  Not the 2nd Amendment.

But yeah ... I know, right ? ... {#Rolleyes}


pigtail

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Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 9:24am

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
A sign of a truly hopeless and alienated population.  STOP gun violence NOW!{#Cry}
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Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 9:02am

 cc_rider wrote:

Just another Wednesday. 

 
I know, right?
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Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 8:05am

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
Just another Wednesday. 
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Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 7:58am

Here we go again...
marko86

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Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 7:24am

An excellent podcast on the subject; http://www.wnyc.org/story/gun-show  . 2nd amendment used to not be a thing, till, I guess when Black Panthers decided to arm themselves in public to patrol the police, then Gov Reagan was all about gun control. NRA used to not be interested in politics till they had a coup. Scholars tend to agree, it was very poorly written, even for its day.
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Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 7:11am

 aflanigan wrote: 
FAKE NEWS!
aflanigan
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Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 7:09am

Handgun Waiting Periods Save Hundreds of Lives a Year, Study Finds


pigtail

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Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 3:06pm

Even my own neighborhood is not immune
http://www.ocregister.com/2017/10/13/search-for-aliso-viejo-shooting-suspect-leads-to-swat-action-in-ventura/
haresfur
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Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 8:07am

 miamizsun wrote:
strangely i think there may be a misunderstanding here

should i elaborate? (when time allows)

 
as you wish
miamizsun

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Posted: Oct 13, 2017 - 5:50am

strangely i think there may be a misunderstanding here

should i elaborate? (when time allows)
aflanigan
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Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 8:34am

 islander wrote:

This is a better point.If you are only going to use your guns to defend your (and probably only your) 2nd amendment rights, while all the other rights of other people are trampled, then all you have left is your right to eat a burrito while well armed.  

 
Indeed. How many militia groups took any sort of action, even public protests while armed, when civil liberties were being curtailed under previous presidents in the name of making war on an emotion (terror)? Where was the NRA?
islander
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Posted: Oct 12, 2017 - 6:22am

 haresfur wrote:

Nah. He's an excellent argument against the second amendment.

American gun owners are going to do SFA about Trump. Guns are far more likely to be used to enforce tyranny than prevent it and are far more effective at that than promoting freedom. Paper tigers.

I mean what would you do? Forcibly redistrict states to get rid of the Congressional enablers?  Take over a national monument to protect it from the government and its corporate interests? I'm not going to hold my breath.

 
This is a better point.If you are only going to use your guns to defend your (and probably only your) 2nd amendment rights, while all the other rights of other people are trampled, then all you have left is your right to eat a burrito while well armed.  
haresfur
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Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 5:40pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
snip

Donald Trump is an excellent argument for the second amendment.
 
Nah. He's an excellent argument against the second amendment.

American gun owners are going to do SFA about Trump. Guns are far more likely to be used to enforce tyranny than prevent it and are far more effective at that than promoting freedom. Paper tigers.

I mean what would you do? Forcibly redistrict states to get rid of the Congressional enablers?  Take over a national monument to protect it from the government and its corporate interests? I'm not going to hold my breath.
aflanigan
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Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 3:39pm

 Lazy8 wrote:


I could go into tedious detail about the weapons used in the Afghan-Soviet war, but here's something I think even you would have to concede: until late in the war (when captured vehicles became a factor) almost every weapon the mujahideen used was carried by nothing stouter than a donkey, and the vast majority were carried by humans. There was a huge disparity in the destructiveness of the weapons on the two sides; the Soviets had air power and tanks and lots of artillery. The mujahideen did not. This was reflected in the casualty ratio (about 6:1 in favor of the Soviets). Yet the Mujahideen won. They succeeded because they outlasted their enemy's will to fight, not because they had superior arms. Or do you dispute that too?

But this is entirely a utilitarian argument. The right to rebel—to attempt to overthrow a tyrannical government—does not depend on the rebellion's chances for success.

We're having this argument in a context: the most authoritarian president in living memory, allied with the ugliest factions in our politics and the worst despots on the world stage, threatening war over his own fragile ego and willing to abuse the power of his office to further his agenda. What if he's as bad as the hyperbole aimed at him? What if he really is a fascist?

Donald Trump is an excellent argument for the second amendment.

 
Actually, it may  be that Trump, for good or ill, could potentially help highlight the anachronistic irrelevance of the 2nd Amendment. Hopefully things will not deteriorate to the point that we end up taking the "for ill" route.

In my opinion the whole point of the Constitution was to set up a government which had robust nonviolent mechanisms to deal with the shortcomings and pitfalls (corruption, megalomania, incompetence) of concentrating power in order to secure and bestow well regulated liberty and prosperity for/upon the masses. Such concentration of power was likely seen by the founders as an historic necessity for survival in a world containing other potentially aggressive nations, but it invites abuse, as I suspect you would agree. We've seen numerous examples of what happens when a nation experiences internal revolution with the intent to overthrow the ruling class/family/army/party via military conflict, guerrilla war, etc. The US has even, to its shame, gotten involved in such conflicts over the years under the pretext of helping "free" oppressed foreigners. Many times the government which rises out of the ashes of such conflict is ultimately even more oppressive and offers less freedom despite the fact that the ostensible aim was to provide the opposite. I believe the founders were justifiably skeptical regarding the ability of armed revolution to reliably restore a decent level of freedom to citizens of an oppressive regime. I think that they wanted to make it possible to recover from the above pitfalls without armed revolution if at all possible.

If we cannot rely on the oversight powers, checks, and balances set forth in the Constitution to handle even the more egregious missteps the electorate may take, including electing as you put it "the most authoritarian president in living memory, allied with the ugliest factions in our politics and the worst despots on the world stage", then under your optimistic scenario of armed revolution, with years, perhaps decades of death, suffering, economic and political turmoil to look forward to, I have little hope that our Constitutional Republic can be restored to any semblance of what it has been for the last century or so. This scenario would differ significantly from the civil war a century and a half ago, which despite its relatively short extent resulted in significant temporary curbing of civil liberties for political expediency. The current scenario you offer would, I fear, involve the need to utterly dismantle and neuter, if not utterly destroy, the standing government of the US, and correspondingly, whoever was in power during the years and decades of the conflict would, I suspect, go much farther in suspending civil liberties and legal protections, and would likely remove them permanently. What would be the main motivations of whatever paramilitary rulers who remained standing at the end of such a conflict? They would fear being themselves overthrown either by partisans of the removed government, or by outside actors. They would inevitably retain the lack of freedom and authoritarian rules "temporarily" until they were certain of their hold on power, and the inevitable grumbling of the masses regarding this would be an ever present incentive to make the dismantling of civil liberties, due process, etc. permanent. Orwell's Animal Farm is probably one of the better essays examining this historical tendency of "revolutionary" governments to become the thing they ostensibly fought against. And as I mentioned before, there is the strong possibility of outside intervention to support an authoritarian dictatorship once established in the US. Revolution provides fertile soil in which hegemonic intervention may flower, as our own history with other countries makes clear. 

Against this backdrop, the Second Amendment offers us, what? A fleeting and ultimately illusory feeling of control over our own destiny? Perhaps you may die in the struggle, gun in hand, and have something named in your honor. I doubt you can realistically hope to retain the freedoms you now enjoy, including the freedom to cling enthusiastically to a useless, dangerous anachronism.

The right to rebel may not, as you put it, depend on the rebellion's chances for success, but what good is such a right if the chances for retaining/restoring our liberties at the end of such a rebellion were effectively zero?
islander
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Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 2:37pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 islander wrote:
Not really sure what your point is here. I do find it ironic that a large number of people who say they need guns to hold off a fascist/tyrannical government are happy enough to support a fascist/tyrannical government as long as the majority of the oppression is directed at other people.

When was the last time we had any kind of a civil uprising here that really got any traction?  The bundy ranch clan is probably the closest we've gotten in a long time and about all they did was make a scene and manage to stay out of jail. 

You realize the "these are the same people that.." argument is a form of ad hominem, and carries no rational weight, right? Just checking.

And an all-out armed insurrection isn't the only form of armed resistance protected by the second amendment. The Black Panthers' patrols in Oakland are a good example.

 
Wasn't really even an argument, just pointing out the irony in your original statement (I actually agree with your statement, I just find it ironic). 

I take your point about the black panthers (and again I agree), but like I said, I don't think they are getting any traction. They were founded at about the same time the Afghanistan mujahideen got serious and organized there, but they haven't made much impact on their founding cause of police brutality against people of color.. They have had some other successes, but I would say those have more to do with community involvement than armed resistance. 

And again, I'm not against the 2nd amendment. But I do think there is room to interpret things from a different perspective than the gun lobby, and I don't think it is absolute. I feel that there is room for reasonable restrictions and regulation. I think the disproportionate violence committed in our country is related to our gun culture and that culture is rooted around the absolute defense of the 2nd amendment beyond what I think is reasonable. 

Lazy8
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Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 1:32pm

 islander wrote:
Not really sure what your point is here. I do find it ironic that a large number of people who say they need guns to hold off a fascist/tyrannical government are happy enough to support a fascist/tyrannical government as long as the majority of the oppression is directed at other people.

When was the last time we had any kind of a civil uprising here that really got any traction?  The bundy ranch clan is probably the closest we've gotten in a long time and about all they did was make a scene and manage to stay out of jail. 

You realize the "these are the same people that.." argument is a form of ad hominem, and carries no rational weight, right? Just checking.

And an all-out armed insurrection isn't the only form of armed resistance protected by the second amendment. The Black Panthers' patrols in Oakland are a good example.
oldviolin
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Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 12:45pm

 islander wrote:

I like to keep mine dull - Less chance of injury if somebody runs with one. 

 
less chance of a new hole to bleed from but the bruise is bigger...
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Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 12:44pm

 miamizsun wrote:


i make it a point to never make points

 
Now I guess we know what happened to your promising sports career,...
islander
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Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 12:41pm

 miamizsun wrote:


i make it a point to never make points

 
I like to keep mine dull - Less chance of injury if somebody runs with one. 
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