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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Guns Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 446, 447, 448  Next
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Lazy8
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Posted: Apr 20, 2018 - 8:41pm

Red_Dragon wrote:
I've read the first one and will read the second in a bit - mainly because you said I wouldn't. You don't know everything. {#Nyah}

This guy - and you, are a lot better at the maths than me; they make my head hurt. I'm sure what he's saying about twisting data to suit one's argument is largely correct. I still believe that we need a rational, national discussion about laws regulating firearms and their ownership. Sadly, that damned unfortunate word choice in the SA "right" and the NRA's seizure of that as holy writ has made any rational discussion pretty much impossible.

The discussion never ends. It hasn't (so far) led to the laws you want, but that doesn't mean it hasn't gone on. Losing a fight doesn't mean the fight didn't happen.

If you want a rational debate then stop basing it on emotion. What you want makes no more or less sense before or after a tragic event, an election, a court case. These things can give or take political momentum but they don't change the effects or morality of a proposed law. And the law doesn't go away when the moral panic is over.

The constitutional argument is separate from the moral and practical argument. Set aside the constitutional restrictions for now; as a practical matter if Team Blue gets to appoint enough Supreme Court Justices the words on the document can be made to mean whatever it's convenient to mean.

I don't want everyone's guns confiscated; not because I wouldn't be happier in a world without the goddam things, but because confiscating 300 million guns is logistically impossible. What I think would be a reasonable set of changes:

1. No more sales of semi-automatic firearms - or parts for them - of any kind to the public.

2. Heavy taxation of semi-auto specific ammunition and components.

3. A buy-back program for all firearms, funded by the above taxation.

4. Treat gun ownership like car ownership: registration, training, licensure, insurance, etc.

I know, just a zillion more ways for "guys like you" to get locked up. I think Islander is absolutely correct about the gun-owning crowd's position of absolutely no compromise being the wrong way to get anywhere except worse.

I have turned 180 degrees on guns since I found this forum, because I have decided to try to be the change I want to see in the world. If I can make that choice, maybe some others can too.

I wrote a long point-by-point rebuttal (that's why this reply took so long) but I realized that no one who needs convincing would read it. This is pretty much a religious issue.

You're starting with the measures you want, not some goal they're supposed to accomplish. If the goal is a safer world with fewer homicides then there are things we could talk about that might actually accomplish that. That would be a rational basis for a discussion. If the goal is just to get a law on the books and damn the consequences, or to prove your allegiance to a political tribe, or to stick it to some demographic that you want to punish then it's an exercise in nothing more noble than raw power, a profoundly immoral act.

Laws shouldn't be about making you (or anyone else) happier. Laws have consequences. Laws put people in prison. Laws are coercion, an instruction backed by threat of violence. A just law punishes something that's wrong. That makes me an implacable foe of futile feel-good measures.

When you're ready to talk about doing some actual good in the world let me know. There are things we could do to make our world safer, fairer, more just—but target fixation on one approach won't get us there. It never has.
miamizsun

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Posted: Apr 13, 2018 - 7:04am

 kcar wrote:
Guns are the cause and symptom in the US—skip to the last link to follow this up.
 
i'm not sure

random thoughts

are guns the cause of police shootings?

are military weapons the cause of war?

and we have been militarizing the domestic police forces for quite some time

this can't be good

peace
kcar

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Posted: Apr 12, 2018 - 2:35pm

 kurtster wrote:

I had to find a link for the reported action somewhere.  Its unfortunate that the headline included the Muslim descriptor.  But it does not change anything regarding what is being discussed, which is homicide.  Gun homicide vs knife homicide.

Like I said, you can project whatever you want on me, I don't care.

Homicide is the problem, not the means, which this helps to underscore.

While the means is important to a degree, the knife homicide rate invalidates the idea that guns are always the primary means of homicide.

There is something culturally wrong.  Putting the primary blame on guns is a dishonest argument.  If not guns, there will be another means to which so far until now, there has been no allowable evidence to the contrary.  Now there is.  And it's being swept under the rug in the gun debate which is underway in the US.  

As long as the insistence that guns are the primary cause of homicide here in the states continues, there will never be an honest debate.  That taking away guns guarantees a reduction of homicide.  We now have evidence to the contrary, from a place where guns have long been taken away.

Guns are the symptom, not the cause.  Until we start framing the debate in these terms, we will have more of the same.  We can no longer point to places where guns have been effectively removed from a society as proof for the means to that end.

{#Meditate}

OBTW, there is a current proposal to license knives.  You can find it in the government link I posted.  Again, I did not make that up.

Evaluating the feasibility of the introduction of a Licensing Scheme for knives in England;

You're saying that this does not constitute a proposal ?  Really ?
 
"There is something culturally wrong.  Putting the primary blame on guns is a dishonest argument.  If not guns, there will be another means to which so far until now, there has been no allowable evidence to the contrary.  Now there is.  And it's being swept under the rug in the gun debate which is underway in the US.  

As long as the insistence that guns are the primary cause of homicide here in the states continues, there will never be an honest debate.  That taking away guns guarantees a reduction of homicide.  We now have evidence to the contrary, from a place where guns have long been taken away.

Guns are the symptom, not the cause.  Until we start framing the debate in these terms, we will have more of the same.  We can no longer point to places where guns have been effectively removed from a society as proof for the means to that end."

Guns are the primary cause of homicide in the US. 
https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/
https://www.sprc.org/means-suicide

Guns are the cause and symptom in the US—skip to the last link to follow this up.

I doubt that it's a good idea to closely compare homicides in the UK (where gun ownership is strictly controlled) with homicides in the US. Homicides are going to occur everywhere, whether there's strict gun control or not. The UK has dramatically lower rates of gun-caused homicides than the US—take a look at the second chart in the BBC piece linked below:

America's gun culture in 10 charts

international comparison gun-related deaths as percentage of all homicides


This link to a section of a longer Vox.com piece points to research in 2007 from the Harvard School of Public Health showing that places with more guns have more homicides: 

https://www.vox.com/cards/gun-violence-facts/gun-homicide-effect-increase 


Studies indicate that the above observation is true among American states and other countries:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts


More guns do not stop more crimes:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/ 

Back to the notion that guns are the cause and symptom of homicides in the US. Fivethirtyeight.com has a telling graphic piece (linked below) that shows suicides by firearms far outnumber homicides by firearms in the US. We all know that idiotic cliche "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." It's obvious that guns need people to pull the trigger and kill someone. It should be fairly obvious that guns make it a lot easier for people to kill themselves and others. 

The United States is a pretty troubled place when it comes to gun violence. Apparently "America is an outlier when it comes to gun deaths, but not overall crime" ( https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts , see chart 7). According to this piece, "nearly half of all homicides are “preceded by some sort of argument or fight, such as a conflict over money or property, anger over one partner cheating on another, severe punishment of a child or abuse of a partner, retaliation for an earlier dispute, or a drunken fight over an insult or other affront.” Handguns, which are common, small, and easy to conceal, allow these disagreements to escalate into deadly violence."  

Confrontation in the US can quickly turn deadly, thanks to guns. Would murders occur at the same rate or in the same numbers if people had the same access to knives as they do guns? Frankly, I doubt it because it's a lot more difficult to kill someone with a knife than it is with a gun. It's not only a practical matter of striking a deadly blow or blows, it's also the psychological weight of being more actively involved in killing someone with a knife than with a gun. The gun as a symptom of violence in the US points to a need for our society to defuse confrontations towards the level of peaceful disagreements and mediated resolution. 

Even more important than gun-related murders are gun-related suicides. Take a look at the FiveThirtyEight graphic story: nearly 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. That is your story if you want to look at guns as a symptom of America's ills. 


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/
cc_rider
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Posted: Apr 12, 2018 - 2:02pm

 Red_Dragon wrote: Even police officers do that occasionally.
What if he'd been in school, and a student got it? A bullied student, a student who got a low grade, anything? The fact otherwise reasonable people even consider arming teachers as a solution, shows how far off the rails the discourse has gone.
c.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Apr 12, 2018 - 1:38pm

Arm the teachers, that's the ticket.
R_P
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Posted: Apr 10, 2018 - 11:52am

 kurtster wrote:
There is something culturally wrong.
 
By all means elaborate.
kurtster

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Posted: Apr 10, 2018 - 4:37am

 haresfur wrote:


So you link to an article using the link text Gun control? London’s Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan bans knives that says 

London’s Sadiq Khan, the first Muslim to assume a mayor’s role for a major Western city, thinks he’s found the cause of the uptick in stabbings his community’s seen in recent times — wayward knives.

And as such, he’s banned the carrying of knives in the city. In the city where migration counts have escalated in recent times, by the way. Coincidence? To Khan — apparently.
You take a conservative government policy, claim it's from the Labour mayor, using and article and headline quote about him being Muslim and say No Muslim stuff, just gun stuff? WTAF? You are the one who brought up the Muslim stuff.

Well, I guess we agree that there is a connection between an increasing number of knife attacks and proposals to address the crimes.

My comment on licensing knives -  there is no current proposal to do that.



 
I had to find a link for the reported action somewhere.  Its unfortunate that the headline included the Muslim descriptor.  But it does not change anything regarding what is being discussed, which is homicide.  Gun homicide vs knife homicide.

Like I said, you can project whatever you want on me, I don't care.

Homicide is the problem, not the means, which this helps to underscore.

While the means is important to a degree, the knife homicide rate invalidates the idea that guns are always the primary means of homicide.

There is something culturally wrong.  Putting the primary blame on guns is a dishonest argument.  If not guns, there will be another means to which so far until now, there has been no allowable evidence to the contrary.  Now there is.  And it's being swept under the rug in the gun debate which is underway in the US.  

As long as the insistence that guns are the primary cause of homicide here in the states continues, there will never be an honest debate.  That taking away guns guarantees a reduction of homicide.  We now have evidence to the contrary, from a place where guns have long been taken away.

Guns are the symptom, not the cause.  Until we start framing the debate in these terms, we will have more of the same.  We can no longer point to places where guns have been effectively removed from a society as proof for the means to that end.

{#Meditate}

OBTW, there is a current proposal to license knives.  You can find it in the government link I posted.  Again, I did not make that up.

Evaluating the feasibility of the introduction of a Licensing Scheme for knives in England;

You're saying that this does not constitute a proposal ?  Really ?



haresfur
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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 11:06pm

 kurtster wrote:

This is what got my attention and motivated me to do some searching ...

No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.

 2:02 AM - 8 Apr 2018

That's a pretty heavy statement coming from any politician imo.
 
A week earlier I posted this article here in this thread and was basically yawned at (and some mocking from the usual suspects)

And from the BBC no less !


So I saw a direct cause and effect between the two and found the other that I just posted about regulating knives.

No Muslim stuff, just gun stuff.  Its not that I'm imagining things or making this stuff up.

You can project on me whatever you want, I don't care.

And no comment about licensing knives, eh ?

Figures.

Peace, out ...
 

So you link to an article using the link text Gun control? London’s Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan bans knives that says 

London’s Sadiq Khan, the first Muslim to assume a mayor’s role for a major Western city, thinks he’s found the cause of the uptick in stabbings his community’s seen in recent times — wayward knives.

And as such, he’s banned the carrying of knives in the city. In the city where migration counts have escalated in recent times, by the way. Coincidence? To Khan — apparently.
You take a conservative government policy, claim it's from the Labour mayor, using and article and headline quote about him being Muslim and say No Muslim stuff, just gun stuff? WTAF? You are the one who brought up the Muslim stuff.

Well, I guess we agree that there is a connection between an increasing number of knife attacks and proposals to address the crimes. My comment on licensing knives -  there is no current proposal to do that.


kurtster

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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 6:26pm

 haresfur wrote:

Sigh, where to begin...

1) a ban on having knives delivered to home addresses is not a ban on knives

2) your article points out that these are policies of the Conservative government that were developed last year and quotes the Conservative home secretary but somehow you and your american sources are making this out to be a policy of the Muslim (gasp!) mayor, who is in a different party. 

3) I get that you don't necessarily agree with British conservative views, whether or not Khan does. But correct me if I'm wrong but there are limits on the type of knives that can be carried in most of the US, right?

4) London population ~8.6 million. Knife crimes 2016-2017 ~ 12,000. Homicides, 110 (57 knife crimes). Sounds like they are doing something (at least compared to the USA) right but recognise they can do better.

5) The initiatives particularly target reducing youth crime (under 25 yrs) and note that the dominant issue is within the black and middle eastern communities. But oh, that Muslim mayor...

6) Y'all could learn a lot from a strategy that calls for community engagement and doing the research to determine how to implement effective measures.
 
This is what got my attention and motivated me to do some searching ...

No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.

 2:02 AM - 8 Apr 2018

That's a pretty heavy statement coming from any politician imo.
 
A week earlier I posted this article here in this thread and was basically yawned at (and some mocking from the usual suspects)

And from the BBC no less !


So I saw a direct cause and effect between the two and found the other that I just posted about regulating knives.

No Muslim stuff, just gun stuff.  Its not that I'm imagining things or making this stuff up.

You can project on me whatever you want, I don't care.

And no comment about licensing knives, eh ?

Figures.

Peace, out ...

R_P
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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 4:53pm

 haresfur wrote:
(...) 6) Y'all could learn a lot from a strategy that calls for community engagement and doing the research to determine how to implement effective measures. 

That just sounds too much like COMMUNISM.
haresfur
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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 4:34pm

 kurtster wrote:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/knives-ban-london-stabbings-home-delivery-online-government-crackdown-a8293686.html

.
I found this one particularly interesting ...

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mopac_knife_crime_strategy_june_2017.pdf

We are keeping deadly weapons off our streets by:

Evaluating the feasibility of the introduction of a Licensing Scheme for knives in England;

 
Sigh, where to begin...

1) a ban on having knives delivered to home addresses is not a ban on knives

2) your article points out that these are policies of the Conservative government that were developed last year and quotes the Conservative home secretary but somehow you and your american sources are making this out to be a policy of the Muslim (gasp!) mayor, who is in a different party. 

3) I get that you don't necessarily agree with British conservative views, whether or not Khan does. But correct me if I'm wrong but there are limits on the type of knives that can be carried in most of the US, right?

4) London population ~8.6 million. Knife crimes 2016-2017 ~ 12,000. Homicides, 110 (57 knife crimes). Sounds like they are doing something (at least compared to the USA) right but recognise they can do better.

5) The initiatives particularly target reducing youth crime (under 25 yrs) and note that the dominant issue is within the black and middle eastern communities. But oh, that Muslim mayor...

6) Y'all could learn a lot from a strategy that calls for community engagement and doing the research to determine how to implement effective measures.

R_P
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R_P Avatar



Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 4:15pm

The discussion w.r.t. crime has been going on for a while, but is now deemed more urgent with the current stats for London:
Did the Conservatives really cut the police and make us less safe from terror attacks?
kurtster

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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 3:58pm

 haresfur wrote:

Funny how only US websites are claiming this. You might think the BBC would report on a knife ban.

 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/knives-ban-london-stabbings-home-delivery-online-government-crackdown-a8293686.html

.
I found this one particularly interesting ...

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mopac_knife_crime_strategy_june_2017.pdf

We are keeping deadly weapons off our streets by:

Evaluating the feasibility of the introduction of a Licensing Scheme for knives in England;

.
 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


That's some top-flight journalism you're consuming. The law has been on the books for some time. Mayor Khan appears to just be calling for it to be enforced.

  That may be.  Once again it shows the effectiveness of laws.  They must be enforced, lest they be mere campaign promises enacted with no intention of enforcement or worse, selective enforcement targeting certain individuals when handy.




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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 3:41pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
That's some top-flight journalism you're consuming.

Ah, but they love the fake (conservative) news. And maybe even more when it's source is related to these crooked nuts:

Moon’s newspaper, The Washington Times, was founded in 1982. Before long, the Times became a major propaganda outlet and attack dog for the Republican Party, as well as the Unification Church’s global business empire and extreme right-wing network. As late investigative journalist Robert Parry wrote in his extensive expose of the Times:

The Times … has targeted American politicians of the center and left with journalistic attacks — sometimes questioning their sanity, as happened with Democratic presidential nominees Michael Dukakis and Al Gore. Those themes then resonate through the broader right-wing echo chamber and into the mainstream media.

Washington Times articles are routinely cited by C-SPAN, for instance, without explanations to viewers that the newspaper is financed by an ultra-right religious cult leader, a convicted tax fraud and a publicly identified money-launderer. Most American listeners just think they’re getting straightforward news.

The Times also has led attacks on investigators who threatened to expose crimes committed by Republican and right-wing operatives. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, the Times targeted Iran-Contra special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh, who recounted in his memoir Firewall the importance of the Times in protecting the Reagan-Bush administration’s legal flanks.

A perfect fit.
ScottFromWyoming
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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 3:09pm

 kurtster wrote:
Time has come, today ...

No, this is not a joke.

Gun control? London’s Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan bans knives

It’s the knives. It’s the knives that are doing the killing, not the people.

Hopefully, Khan’s ridiculous ban won’t catch on in America. Conservatives have been saying this for some time — that it won’t be long before anti-gun leftists turn their anti-intents toward knives, as well.

That day has now arrived. But let’s confine the crazy to London, please.



 
That's some top-flight journalism you're consuming. The law has been on the books for some time. Mayor Khan appears to just be calling for it to be enforced.
haresfur
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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 3:05pm

 kurtster wrote:
Time has come, today ...

No, this is not a joke.

Gun control? London’s Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan bans knives

It’s the knives. It’s the knives that are doing the killing, not the people.

Hopefully, Khan’s ridiculous ban won’t catch on in America. Conservatives have been saying this for some time — that it won’t be long before anti-gun leftists turn their anti-intents toward knives, as well.

That day has now arrived. But let’s confine the crazy to London, please.



 
Funny how only US websites are claiming this. You might think the BBC would report on a knife ban.
kurtster

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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 2:54pm

Time has come, today ...

No, this is not a joke.

Gun control? London’s Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan bans knives

It’s the knives. It’s the knives that are doing the killing, not the people.

Hopefully, Khan’s ridiculous ban won’t catch on in America. Conservatives have been saying this for some time — that it won’t be long before anti-gun leftists turn their anti-intents toward knives, as well.

That day has now arrived. But let’s confine the crazy to London, please.


Lazy8
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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 2:23pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Federal law does not address this. Each state has its own rules, generally broken down into No, Yes (even in prison), and Once the sentence is served. It doesn't matter where the crime/punishment happened. Wyoming's a NO state; a guy moved here from Alaska (where it's okay to vote once the state's done with you) with a felony, registered and voted and got in trouble all over again. 

Just to clarify: people indicted for or convicted of crimes punishable by a year or more imprisonment (it doesn't say "felons" but they would be included) have been prohibited from possessing firearms since at least 1968 at the federal level. Various states had similar prohibitions before that and there were probably earlier federal laws as well.

There is a long list of "prohibited persons"—it's not limited to felons.
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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 12:57pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Federal law does not address this. Each state has its own rules, generally broken down into No, Yes (even in prison), and Once the sentence is served.

 
 {#Yes}  Maine and Vermont are the only ones that let them vote in prison.  14 allow it immediately on release.  The others have a waiting period, often while on parole, and or various other hurdles. Details here.
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Posted: Apr 9, 2018 - 12:46pm

 sirdroseph wrote:

I assure you it does, convicted felons cannot vote or have firearms. Something I oppose, convicted felons should have the right to vote and protect their families. I actually was a potential juror on a case where a convicted felon got arrested for being a passenger in a vehicle that was stopped and he had an air gun. The prosecutor could not get me out of the courthouse fast enough when answering that I thought convicted felons should have the right to own weapons. No victim, no crime. lol Poor guy, I hope he got off but I doubt it. :-(

 
Federal law does not address this. Each state has its own rules, generally broken down into No, Yes (even in prison), and Once the sentence is served. It doesn't matter where the crime/punishment happened. Wyoming's a NO state; a guy moved here from Alaska (where it's okay to vote once the state's done with you) with a felony, registered and voted and got in trouble all over again. 


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