Night Zip,

thought you were up late.  The Economist (which I haven't read in yonks) used to have good comparison of total tax burdens. Strangely most western countries have comparable tax levels when it comes down to it.

Sales tax here is a whopping 19% plus we have huge tax rates on oil-based products.. and on and on.. OTOH corporate income tax has been cut from 40% to 25% .. all just swings and roundabouts.

NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
I understand your frustration.  Government employees here are paid very well, including the teachers, despite what you may have heard.  Plus, the federal employees (maybe the state as well, not certain because I can't pull up a W-2 for one of them in my head at this hour) pay no social security, yet they're paid a pension.  Our tax dollars at work! 

g-night.

NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
That's socialism alright.  Our top individual rate (sliding scale here, too) is 35% federal income, plus 7.65% for social security & medicare.  Add 6% state tax, and that's close enough to 50%.  Employers and the self-employed match the 7.65%.  Then there's the capital gains tax and the state disability tax and the annual county property tax for property that you already own.  We pay over 8% state sales tax on purchases.  There are permits and licenses one must pay for... I know someone here in California who decided not to erect a storage building because the county demanded $25k just for a building permit.  It's stifling.

The maximum federal corporate tax rate is already 38% federal; state is 7%.

Gotta sleep.  Good to see you.

Postscript to
Despite being on the political left I actually do hate the inefficiencies of big government. I understand that, in a time of crisis, the sheer inertia of a huge public sector can be a good thing to keep the economy ticking over but it does rile me when I work up to 80 hour weeks and having no paid holiday whereas government workers here earn more than half of what I earn for about 36 hours a week plus six weeks paid holiday a year. A lot of them don't know how good they've got it. (and yes I can compare, having had my share of menial jobs in my lifetime).

By contrast, I appreciate what New Zealand has pulled off in the last twenty years. Income taxes max out at 33% but that already includes social security (health and pension). Gross incomes are much lower than here in Germany but for the comfortably off, disposable incomes are almost comparable to here. Yet at the same time the quality of education (if not health, where the Germans excel) is very high.

 zipper wrote: 

Mine personally? Far too high  

They use a sliding formula here to calculate it. Personal income tax maxes out at 45% for a taxable income of 250,000 EUR per annum.

Most people pay between 20% and 30%

BUT

on top of that, employees (self-employed are exempt) pay 15.5% health insurance on their gross income AND 19% pension insurance. They use a little trick here to say that the employer pays 50% of the last two and the employee the other 50%, not that helps the employers much.. So roughly 50% of an average earner's income goes in taxes and social security.

NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
We already do all of that here.  Charitable organizations fill in where the government shouldn't in a democracy.  What's your highest tax rate?

 zipper wrote: 

Strangely enough, for me socialism is all about equal opportunity and not at all about equal results..

Where we probably differ is that I believe that equal opportunity sometimes means we have to take from the rich and give to the poor. This does not mean bringing the rich down to the same level as the poor. At most it means something like progressive taxes, giving poor kids a decent education, ensuring basic rights like healthcare and nutrition.. What somebody makes of that opportunity is their business. Socialism for me is ensuring that we at least all have that same basic opportunity.

NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
In the simplest terms, socialism guarantees equal results.  I prefer guaranteed equal opportunity.  Easily half the country won't make an effort to earn anything if the government is giving handouts to them for doing nothing.  I'm more aware than many that people sometimes need assistance, but depending upon it should be a last resort emergency measure for the able-bodied rather than a way of life.

What is socialism for you and what do you think is good about it?

 zipper wrote: 
Still very bemused that socialism is a bad word in America.. must be about the only country in the world where that is so. Would love to know Zipper what you actually define by the word. What is socialism for you and what do you think is bad about it?

It's called socialism.

 stewliscious wrote: 
While you are technically correct, the reality of the situation is that either Obama/Biden or McCain/Palin will win the Presidential election.  You can vote for a third party that has no chance of winning, or not vote at all.  But when all is said and done, that "null vote" still affects the two viable candidates.

For example, look at the 2000 elections.  We all know the outcome.  Most of us know that if more people had voted for Gore or Bush, that the Florida debacle would not have been enough to influence the outcome of the election, and this nation would not have seen its first political coup d’état.  If at least some of the 50% or so of eligible voters who failed to cast a vote had gotten off their lazy butts, and acted like citizens, there might have been a decisive winner, and no opportunity for the GOP to commit election fraud.

We can only speculate what might happen this 4 November, 2008.  But one thing is for certain: doing nothing, or making useless gestures does have consequences.

 owld_skipper wrote: 
Please, please do not help propogate the idea that most people have swallowed hook, line and sinker.  YOU HAVE MORE THAN 2 CHOICES!  Put them both out on their asses and remind our elected officials THEY WORK FOR US!  Don't vote for either of them.  There are other choices, and if anyone had the nerve to vote beyond choice 1 or choice 2 we would change the face of American politics.  Make them work for it, don't hand it to them.

Whatever happened to the CFR? I'm sure they just cleaned the image up, left an empty shack  and just skulked away under a different name.
 Oh well.

 samiyam wrote: 

They are in the room watching you type.  You don't have to answer. 

We are working on a plan, help will arrive soon.

 kurtster wrote: 
No... wrong... they're really nice people.  I know some of them and they're sweethearts.

Love to talk to them... they're intelligent and funny and they are generous to a fault.

 hippiechick wrote: 

Nope, this would be refering to the New World Order, Trilateral Commission and the like.  The people behind the North American Union, the Amero currency and similar reorganizations of geopolitical and economic systems.  These are not very nice people.

 kurtster wrote: 
The Rothschilds were Jewish, weren't they? Aren't you referring to a Catholic org?

 zipper wrote: 
Surrounding unsubstantiated claims with unrelated video footage does absolutely nothing to lend any credence whatsoever to those claims.  In fact, it tends to indicate that those claims are in fact lies.

"You can fool some of the people...", but you're going to have to get up mighty early to fool me!

What about the Bobby Kennedy scandal?

There is undeniable proof that Robert F. Kennedy was close to a Palestinian terrorist (all Palestinians are terrorists, by definition) Sirhan Sirhan.  So obviously Kennedy was dirty!  Good thing that some patriotic American gunned him down before he could become President!