It's not just a turd-it's a Christmas movement 

 

Hey, nothing finer that a good, solid, heartfelt rant. Never mind rhetorical flourishes or diplomatic niceties, it's good to let go.
 

Again, I never said I was offended or insulted. The original crux of this convo was that Christmas, or Christianity, should not be supported with my tax dollars by putting creches on the lawn of the fire department, or Christmas celebrations in schools, or crosses on public lands to honor war veterans. Trying to explain why this is offensive to someone who doesn't participate in this has turned into this other conversation. I have no problem with anybody celebrating their holiday, but the celebration should be private, not one that everyone should be expected to participate in. 

I have lived in this country all my life, and I have had good experiences during this season, like the year that my kids' elementary school banished anything that looked like Christmas, and had a Winter Party instead, with snowflakes and snowmen instead of Santa and Rudolph, and it was extremely pleasant. And then there was my kids' other elementary school that banished all symbols of Hanukkah and loaded up the school with Christmas, making every Jewish kid in the school feel like outcasts. This should not happen in schools. All children should be made to feel that their school is theirs. 

If you would want to come to synagogue with me, you would be more than welcome. 

 

Yeah, that was too much. Oh well.

Yeah, so I wrote I big ass reply which I had to delete - dang

   

Okay now I'm strictly into the discussion part of this. I understand you're out of sorts so please don't take this as any sort of jab at you in particular, but:

Really? When I lived in San Francisco it was absolutely the thing to say Gung Hay Fat Choi at the New Year. Maybe they all cringe inside tho. If you said "L'Shana Tova" to me I'd

1. Say "whaaa?"
2. Ask for you to tell me what it meant
3. and say "and Maria Sharapova to you too!" or something as phonetically similar as I could make my stupid tongue say. It hates new words. But I wouldn't be insulted in any way. Would it insult you to have me try to repeat the words back to you?
   

Am I out of line? Maybe. I know that some churches (Mormon temples, Christian Science IIRC) don't allow non-members inside the inner sanctum, so you might have a point there about them wanting to be exclusive. I tend to think they don't want people challenging them which could be good or bad depending. But you're welcome to come sit in our church just to watch the ceremony (what little there is)(actually sometimes there's quite a bit and it's cool in a Merrie Olde sort of way) and someone will invite you to coffee afterwards but it's perfectly okay to just come and watch and say "I have zero intention of ever joining your church or converting or probably ever coming again, I just wanted to see what it's all about." We're totally open to that, but then we consecrate gay bishops and women bishops and priests so maybe that's just us...

The other side of the coin is if I go someplace new, even though I'm not some crazy churchy zealot, I am intrigued by them. I would want to come to your synagogue with you. I really want to go to one of those snake-handler meetin's down south sometime. When we were in London I insisted on going to Sunday services at St. Paul's Cathedral (awesome music!) and if I were to go to India, China, Japan or Iran I would want to go to their ceremonies too. You learn so much by trying to understand this major facet of peoples' lives. Not that I know anything about anything; we don't have anything but mainstream Christianity around here, plus Mormons, and I don't want to get into the theology as much as the ceremony. Often derided as the "smells and bells"... and so no, I'm a hypocrite because I've never been to a Mormon service but I know, without a doubt, that I would be hounded for, like, EVER if I did that. I guess I only want to go visit churches who are more "take it or leave it"

So anyway maybe I'm just some country bumpkin barging in where I'm not wanted. Do others have any interest in celebrations that aren't "theirs"?

Yeah, so I wrote I big ass reply which I had to delete - dang

   

  I love to observe cultural rituals and celebrations - I don't care whether they're religious or not - it's just interesting. I've been to a few different churches when it was appropriate - just  out of curiosity - and most of them don't care why you're there but are glad you're there. Glide church is always full of tourists and outsiders who come to visit and hear their world-famous music and sermons. I used to volunteer there on the holidays even. So I agree with you - it can be a pretty cool learning and enrichment experience. Also, I don't get what the argument is about in regards to wishing someone a happy FILL IN THE BLANK. What's so wrong about that? I honestly do hope people enjoy whatever holiday  they choose to celebrate - I mean why not? And if someone wishes me a Happy Christmas, although I don't celebrate it, I'm all cool, thanks, that's nice of you. Yeah, I've poked fun at religion but I wouldn't be offended at someone's kind thoughts or begrudge the same to theml. HAPPY ST. SWITHIN'S DAY!

Yeah, that was too much. Oh well.

Okay now I'm strictly into the discussion part of this. I understand you're out of sorts so please don't take this as any sort of jab at you in particular, but:

Really? When I lived in San Francisco it was absolutely the thing to say Gung Hay Fat Choi at the New Year. Maybe they all cringe inside tho. If you said "L'Shana Tova" to me I'd

1. Say "whaaa?"
2. Ask for you to tell me what it meant
3. and say "and Maria Sharapova to you too!" or something as phonetically similar as I could make my stupid tongue say. It hates new words. But I wouldn't be insulted in any way. Would it insult you to have me try to repeat the words back to you?
   

Am I out of line? Maybe. I know that some churches (Mormon temples, Christian Science IIRC) don't allow non-members inside the inner sanctum, so you might have a point there about them wanting to be exclusive. I tend to think they don't want people challenging them which could be good or bad depending. But you're welcome to come sit in our church just to watch the ceremony (what little there is)(actually sometimes there's quite a bit and it's cool in a Merrie Olde sort of way) and someone will invite you to coffee afterwards but it's perfectly okay to just come and watch and say "I have zero intention of ever joining your church or converting or probably ever coming again, I just wanted to see what it's all about." We're totally open to that, but then we consecrate gay bishops and women bishops and priests so maybe that's just us...

The other side of the coin is if I go someplace new, even though I'm not some crazy churchy zealot, I am intrigued by them. I would want to come to your synagogue with you. I really want to go to one of those snake-handler meetin's down south sometime. When we were in London I insisted on going to Sunday services at St. Paul's Cathedral (awesome music!) and if I were to go to India, China, Japan or Iran I would want to go to their ceremonies too. You learn so much by trying to understand this major facet of peoples' lives. Not that I know anything about anything; we don't have anything but mainstream Christianity around here, plus Mormons, and I don't want to get into the theology as much as the ceremony. Often derided as the "smells and bells"... and so no, I'm a hypocrite because I've never been to a Mormon service but I know, without a doubt, that I would be hounded for, like, EVER if I did that. I guess I only want to go visit churches who are more "take it or leave it"

So anyway maybe I'm just some country bumpkin barging in where I'm not wanted. Do others have any interest in celebrations that aren't "theirs"?

Not as it pertains to RightWingNutZ.

I hope the rest of your day is better. get out and do something fun.

The conversation started because right wing congressman (or somebody, I don't even remember anymore) refused to appear in a parade because the parade holders changed the parade from a "Christmas" parade to a "holiday" parade. And Kurtster doesn't understand why everyone shouldn't want it to be that way, because his point is that it is a Christian nation, which it isn't.   

I didn't say I was offended by Christmas. It's the people who think that everyone should enjoy Christmas that I find annoying. The spirit of the season is the spirit of Christmas, and I don't celebrate Christmas. Period. If it makes you feel better to wish me Merry Christmas, go right ahead. If you want to be more sensitive, and recognize that it's not all about you and your holiday, then don't give me a greeting that means nothing to me. I know this is a hard concept to wrap your head around. I simply don't celebrate Christmas. I get tired being told that I should, or that I should enjoy it, just because everyone else around me does. I am not stopping you from celebrating, just don't think that I am wrong because I don't. It's like not being a sports fan, but being constantly bombarded by everything sports, and then people being pissed at you because you aren't jumping up and down for their team.

Scott wanted to know if I would be offended by being greeted by the Chinese New Year. I can't imagine anyone extending that greeting to me, because I do not celebrate the Chinese New Year. That doesn't mean I can't go to Chinatown and enjoy the parade. I don't walk around wishing people who aren't Jewish L'Shana Tova, Happy Jewish New Year, I can't imagine expecting people to want to hear that from me, or to make them come to synagogue to pray, or to participate in any other aspects of Jewish holidays. It would simply be in bad taste. What a person celebrates is up to them. No one has ever demanded that everyone gets the Jewish religious holidays off. In fact, most companies make those people take PTO days.

But I have certainly wasted enough breath on this subject. It's always easier to make fun of something than to try to understand where another person is coming from. That's the way it is for minorities. 

I hope the rest of your day is better. get out and do something fun.

Listen, I have been having kind of a shitty day, and this has most likely been reflected in my words. My apologies to y'all.

Listen, I have been having kind of a shitty day, and this has most likely been reflected in my words. My apologies to y'all.

It ain't the "spreading joy" part that's the problem.

Ours is not a civilization comprising many equal streams commingling, and people from each religion wishing everyone a happy holiday on whatever day they choose to celebrate.   The streams are there, all right, but the Christian one has predominated. 

Christmas is hyped as the Season of Good Cheer and Peace Goodwill to Men and blah blah blah, but the holiday does have its down side.  The herd may get together for eggnog and dancing towards the omnipresent mistletoe, but the herd decides which to include and which to exclude. (...)