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rickhoran

rickhoran Avatar

Location: Harmony, NJ
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 12:00pm

 owld_skipper wrote:
The Bail Out Bill failed in the House.
FAIL!

 
this could be good. it seemed too much of a rush anyway....

rickhoran

rickhoran Avatar

Location: Harmony, NJ
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 11:55am

 hippiechick wrote:

Do you live near Yardley? That's where our company's hq is.
 

up north between 78 and 80 the properties lie in PA and NJ.
(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 11:55am

The Bail Out Bill failed in the House.
FAIL!
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 11:52am

 rickhoran wrote:

where i live in Eastern PA, western NJ (my girlfriend and i have two properties. looking for more right now) its not as bad as say Florida. I think if we work from the top of the list down we would get bigger bang for the buck.. i mean the top are people that just need a little boost and the more the need the lower down the list you go. that way, math would dictate that more people would benefit.... NOW that could (and probably would) mean that the properties and owner that are DEEP in the weeds are just f*k'd. i don't know what that would mean for the mortgage backed securities markets. I would like to think maybe a select few would get hammered but many would work out to be ok on wall street and the banks. as i read this weekend a banker in omaha nebraska said, "don't confuse us with wall street, we have money to lend. we were and still are happy with 5.5 percent return on mortgages."

but as i said before and it bears repeating for my own good. i don't want a bailout i am a free market guy.. but if we are heading this way i think the bottom up approach is valid and much better.

 
Do you live near Yardley? That's where our company's hq is.

rickhoran

rickhoran Avatar

Location: Harmony, NJ
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 11:49am

 Painted_Turtle wrote:


I agree with you, its' certainly not pretty.  I'd still rather see the money go to the people with the loans.  I think your idea about restructing those loans to a low, stable, fixed 30 year mortgate is a good one

I'm not sure how they should calculate the huge drop in value on the real estate market. (we're experiencing the same problem here in Minnesota).  Eventually the market value would start to climb again.

Got any ides to throw out there about the buying down problem?  Ideas are free, and you never know, they might be good ones or help us to take off in the right direction for better answers


 
where i live in Eastern PA, western NJ (my girlfriend and i have two properties. looking for more right now) its not as bad as say Florida. I think if we work from the top of the list down we would get bigger bang for the buck.. i mean the top are people that just need a little boost and the more the need the lower down the list you go. that way, math would dictate that more people would benefit.... NOW that could (and probably would) mean that the properties and owner that are DEEP in the weeds are just f*k'd. i don't know what that would mean for the mortgage backed securities markets. I would like to think maybe a select few would get hammered but many would work out to be ok on wall street and the banks. as i read this weekend a banker in omaha nebraska said, "don't confuse us with wall street, we have money to lend. we were and still are happy with 5.5 percent return on mortgages."

but as i said before and it bears repeating for my own good. i don't want a bailout i am a free market guy.. but if we are heading this way i think the bottom up approach is valid and much better.


Painted_Turtle

Painted_Turtle Avatar

Location: Land of Laughing Waters
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 11:38am

 rickhoran wrote:

yes and no. i hate this idea but its not as bad as the bailout of the financial sevants.
the "No" is a lot of these people are in such a jam that you might have to pay out 200K (buy down, and also reset mortgage amount cuz the property value dropped up to 40% (in FL for example) just for one property to straighten out the mess for that single property.
i would like to see this maybe not paying the mortgages but how about fixing them for those that can afford their house with reasonable mortgage rates. I don't know how many people would qualify for that.... in other words "buy them down to a nice mortgage rate" over 30 years instead of these retarded ballons or interest only loans.
 

I agree with you, its' certainly not pretty.  I'd still rather see the money go to the people with the loans.  I think your idea about restructing those loans to a low, stable, fixed 30 year mortgate is a good one

I'm not sure how they should calculate the huge drop in value on the real estate market. (we're experiencing the same problem here in Minnesota).  Eventually the market value would start to climb again.

Got any ides to throw out there about the buying down problem?  Ideas are free, and you never know, they might be good ones or help us to take off in the right direction for better answers

rickhoran

rickhoran Avatar

Location: Harmony, NJ
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 11:27am

 Painted_Turtle wrote:

Maybe the bailout should not be given directly to the financial insitutions, but instead begin with a bottom-up approach.

here's one alternative plan I just heard about

"There is the idea of simply taking the $700 billion and simply give it to struggling homeowners to help them pay off part of their mortgages. This hasn't even been discussed but the thought experiment it involves is important to understanding why there is, indeed, an alternative to the Paulson plan. If the root of this problem is people not being able to pay off their mortgages, and those defaults then devaluing banks' mortgage-backed assets, then simply helping people pay their mortgages would preserve the value of the mortgage-backed assets and recharge the market with liquidity."

The dollar wouldn't take such a hit on this one either.  Since the problem is touted as originating with the mortgage crises (which would still be going on even after a bailout of financial institutions)

...true its' still giving away lots of money, but wouldn't it stop the crises dead in its' tracks?


 
yes and no. i hate this idea but its not as bad as the bailout of the financial sevants.
the "No" is a lot of these people are in such a jam that you might have to pay out 200K (buy down, and also reset mortgage amount cuz the property value dropped up to 40% (in FL for example) just for one property to straighten out the mess for that single property.
i would like to see this maybe not paying the mortgages but how about fixing them for those that can afford their house with reasonable mortgage rates. I don't know how many people would qualify for that.... in other words "buy them down to a nice mortgage rate" over 30 years instead of these retarded ballons or interest only loans.

Painted_Turtle

Painted_Turtle Avatar

Location: Land of Laughing Waters
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 11:17am

 BasmntMadman wrote:

Sounds reasonable enough.  It'd be to their advantage not to have a US economy going down the toilet, just as it's not to the US's advantage to let its financial institutions go down the toilet.  But consider the byproduct of the US bailout of its financial institutions - controls by the bailers-out.  Wonder what the world's conditions would be?  Especially after Bush's crowd has crowed so loudly and arrogantly about the unimportance of the rest of the world.
 
Maybe the bailout should not be given directly to the financial insitutions, but instead begin with a bottom-up approach.

here's one alternative plan I just heard about

"There is the idea of simply taking the $700 billion and simply give it to struggling homeowners to help them pay off part of their mortgages. This hasn't even been discussed but the thought experiment it involves is important to understanding why there is, indeed, an alternative to the Paulson plan. If the root of this problem is people not being able to pay off their mortgages, and those defaults then devaluing banks' mortgage-backed assets, then simply helping people pay their mortgages would preserve the value of the mortgage-backed assets and recharge the market with liquidity."

The dollar wouldn't take such a hit on this one either.  Since the problem is touted as originating with the mortgage crises (which would still be going on even after a bailout of financial institutions)

...true its' still giving away lots of money, but wouldn't it stop the crises dead in its' tracks?

BasmntMadman

BasmntMadman Avatar

Location: Off-White Gardens


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 10:42am

 rickhoran wrote:


ok. i read this a couple times.

1. isn't the above limit always has been true since the early 1800?
2. this article or paper seems limiting (myopic)... the world gets involved too. while the US dollar drops like a rock think of other currencies and how fast they approach zero. so i would think (i am noone of course) that the world (financial) leaders would get together and do something drastic before we go too far into stage 2.

 
Sounds reasonable enough.  It'd be to their advantage not to have a US economy going down the toilet, just as it's not to the US's advantage to let its financial institutions go down the toilet.  But consider the byproduct of the US bailout of its financial institutions - controls by the bailers-out.  Wonder what the world's conditions would be?  Especially after Bush's crowd has crowed so loudly and arrogantly about the unimportance of the rest of the world.

rickhoran

rickhoran Avatar

Location: Harmony, NJ
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 29, 2008 - 8:19am

 laozilover wrote: 

ok. i read this a couple times.

1. isn't the above limit always has been true since the early 1800?
2. this article or paper seems limiting (myopic)... the world gets involved too. while the US dollar drops like a rock think of other currencies and how fast they approach zero. so i would think (i am noone of course) that the world (financial) leaders would get together and do something drastic before we go too far into stage 2.


laozilover

laozilover Avatar

Location: K Town (Kenosha, Wisconsin)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 28, 2008 - 8:29pm

Thanks to Mike Ruppert at mikeruppert.blogspot.com for this link
http://www.reuters.com/resources/images/logo_reuters_media_us.gif
China banks told to halt lending to US banks-SCMP
Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:52pm EDT

BEIJING, Sept 25 (Reuters) - Chinese regulators have told domestic banks to stop interbank lending to U.S. financial institutions to prevent possible losses during the financial crisis, the South China Morning Post reported on Thursday.

The Hong Kong newspaper cited unidentified industry sources as saying the instruction from the China Banking Regulatory Commission (CBRC) applied to interbank lending of all currencies to U.S. banks but not to banks from other countries.

"The decree appears to be Beijing's first attempt to erect defences against the deepening U.S. financial meltdown after the mainland's major lenders reported billions of U.S. dollars in exposure to the credit crisis," the SCMP said.

A spokesman for the CBRC had no immediate comment. (Reporting by Alan Wheatley and Langi Chiang; editing by Ken Wills)

© Thomson Reuters 2008 All rights reserved



laozilover

laozilover Avatar

Location: K Town (Kenosha, Wisconsin)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 27, 2008 - 9:47am

limt→∞US$ = 0
Dmitry Orlov: Adieu, Stage 1 Collapse
 Dmitry Orlov wrote:

In February of this year, I wrote The Five Stages of Collapse, connecting each stage of collapse - financial, commercial, political, social and cultural - with a specific mental milestone, where faith in some aspect of our status quo is shattered in the face of dramatically altered circumstances. Here is what I had to say at the time about Stage 1: Financial Collapse:

Financial collapse, as we are currently observing it, consists of two parts. One is that a part of the general population is forced to move, no longer able to afford the house they bought based on inflated assessments, forged income numbers, and foolish expectations of endless asset inflation. Since, technically, they should never have been allowed to buy these houses, and were only able to do so because of financial and political malfeasance, this is actually a healthy development. The second part consists of men in expensive suits tossing bundles of suddenly worthless paper up in the air, ripping out their remaining hair, and (some of us might uncharitably hope) setting themselves on fire on the steps of the Federal Reserve. They, to express it in their own vernacular, "fucked up," and so this is also just as it should be.

The government response to this could be to offer some helpful homilies about "the wages of sin" and to open a few soup kitchens and flop houses in a variety of locations including Wall Street. The message would be: "You former debt addicts and gamblers, as you say, 'fucked up,' and so this will really hurt for a long time. We will never let you anywhere near big money again. Get yourselves over to the soup kitchen, and bring your own bowl, because we don't do dishes." This would result in a stable Stage 1 collapse - the Second Great Depression.

However, this is unlikely, because in the US the government happens to be debt addict and gambler number one. As individuals, we may have been as virtuous as we wished, but the government will have still run up exorbitant debts on our behalf. Every level of government, from local municipalities and authorities, which need the financial markets to finance their public works and public services, to the federal government, which relies on foreign investment to finance its endless wars, is addicted to public debt. They know they cannot stop borrowing, and so they will do anything they can to keep the game going for as long as possible.

About the only thing the government currently seems it fit to do is extend further credit to those in trouble, by setting interest rates at far below inflation, by accepting worthless bits of paper as collateral and by pumping money into insolvent financial institutions. This has the effect of diluting the dollar, further undermining its value, and will, in due course, lead to hyperinflation, which is bad enough in any economy, but is especially serious for one dominated by imports. As imports dry up and the associated parts of the economy shut down, we pass Stage 2: Commercial Collapse.

So far so good. In terms of mental milestones, we can tease apart financial collapse into a number of psychological levees that are being breached one by one. The first one to go was people's faith in home equity: that the value of their homes will serve as a nest egg to sustain them in retirement. What we have been witnessing for the past week or so is the demise of people's faith that their investment portfolio will sustain them. It is still easy to find investment advisers who will tell you to "go long on equities" because, you see, "eventually the economy will recover," but their reassuring words are starting to sound like a death rattle to all those whose retirement savings suddenly look laughably inadequate.

Eventually, faith in the magical, mystical properties of the US Dollar will be lost, but it seems very important to all concerned to make the process gradual. It seems safe to assume that in the limit, as time goes to infinity, the value of the US Dollar goes to zero:

limt→∞US$ = 0


It also seems safe to assume that it is negligible even for finite, foreseeable values of t. The problem is making it look like a continuous function. If the value of any given type of dollar-denominated garbage jumps to zero suddenly (because it cannot be sold at any price) then that produces a discontinuity: a rift in the fake financial space-time continuum.

This is what the current bailout plan is generally about. It is not about making anyone here happy: the fascists think that smells of socialism, the socialists think that it smells of fascism, and everyone (except for Bush, Paulson and Bernanke) agrees that it smells. Some people would like to see some heads roll, but as Robespierre discovered in the course of the French revolution, that just puts you knee-deep in headless aristocratic corpses, still with neither bread nor cake to feed to the peasants.

Speaking of peasants, everyone continues to repeat that the bailout is being financed by "the taxpayer," although it is unclear why our soon-to-be jobless and destitute taxpayer should be expected to cough up an extra trillion or more. The taxpayer may soon need a bailout too. If this mythical taxpayer actually tried to borrow her share of a trillion dollars against her future earnings, what sane person would want to give her that loan? Clearly, the gratuitous mention of the taxpayer is just a ruse designed to hide the rather obvious truth.

The bailout is actually going to be financed by foreign interests that hold US Dollar assets. Yes, the value of their holdings will go to zero, but they do not want this to happen suddenly. They wish to continue redeeming their US Dollar holdings for all manner of things of value, from capital equipment and intellectual property, which can be expatriated, to farmland and other means of production, which can be used in situ to grow food, mine ore, and so forth, which are then expatriated. There is some optimal function for this great unwinding, which will allow foreigners to expropriate the maximum amount of value in the minimum amount of time before their efforts to redeem their remaining US Dollar holdings stop paying for themselves in terms of the value of the available stuff.

As this process runs its course, the US will lose access to imports. Most significantly, it will find it more and more difficult to obtain the 2/3 of the transportation fuels that come from abroad, which are needed to keep the economy functioning. And that will bring on Phase 2: Commercial Collapse. That is probably what we are getting for Christmas this year, or shortly thereafter.

In the meantime, enjoy Stage 1. You will miss it once it's over.

  

R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 27, 2008 - 1:59am

 RichardPrins wrote:
The Power of Negative Thinking
By BARBARA EHRENREICH

GREED — and its crafty sibling, speculation — are the designated culprits for the financial crisis. But another, much admired, habit of mind should get its share of the blame: the delusional optimism of mainstream, all-American, positive thinking.(...)
 
Optimism Experts Handicap the Presidential Election With About Six Weeks Remaining Until Nov. 4
PHILADELPHIA –- With less than six weeks until the general election, a University of Pennsylvania study analyzing the relative optimism of the 2008 presidential and vice presidential candidates has found Barack Obama and John McCain to be equally optimistic and Sarah Palin slightly more optimistic than Joseph Biden.

Researchers have determined that the most optimistic candidates win more than 80 percent of presidential elections dating back to 1900. How optimism confers this electoral advantage is unclear, but Penn psychologists believe optimistic candidates inspire hope in the electorate and try harder, particularly when faced with a challenge.

The study, conducted by researchers from Penn’s Positive Psychology Center, analyzed speeches given at the Saddleback Forum on Faith and the candidates’ respective convention acceptance speeches to determine levels of optimism.

“Although our initial report suggests this election is too close to call, shifts in optimism and rhetoric over the next few weeks may very well predict which side emerges as the victor,” Stephen Schueller, lead analyst on the project and a doctoral candidate in the Department of Psychology at Penn, said. (...)

laozilover

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Location: K Town (Kenosha, Wisconsin)
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 25, 2008 - 5:12pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
The Power of Negative Thinking
By BARBARA EHRENREICH

GREED — and its crafty sibling, speculation — are the designated culprits for the financial crisis. But another, much admired, habit of mind should get its share of the blame: the delusional optimism of mainstream, all-American, positive thinking.. (...)

Not in the least championed/milked by The Secret and other woo...
 
Yeah, but Matt Foley upgraded to a double-wide (down by the river)!
ecocommie

ecocommie Avatar

Location: Hillsboro, OR


Posted: Sep 25, 2008 - 11:36am

Is the US the next Argentina?

From Wikipedia...
Argentina was subject to military dictatorship (alternating with weak, short-lived democratic governments) for many years, that resulted in a number of significant economic problems. During the National Reorganization Process (1976-1983) huge debt was acquired for money that was later lost in different unfinished projects, the Falkland/Malvinas Islands War, and the state's takeover of private debts; in this period, a neoliberal economic platform was introduced. By the end of the military government the country's industries were severely affected and unemployment, calculated at 18% (though official figures claimed 5%), was at its highest point since the depression.<1>

Substitute Falkland/Malvinas with Iraq/Afghanistan

R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 24, 2008 - 3:40pm

The Power of Negative Thinking
By BARBARA EHRENREICH

GREED — and its crafty sibling, speculation — are the designated culprits for the financial crisis. But another, much admired, habit of mind should get its share of the blame: the delusional optimism of mainstream, all-American, positive thinking.

As promoted by Oprah Winfrey, scores of megachurch pastors and an endless flow of self-help best sellers, the idea is to firmly believe that you will get what you want, not only because it will make you feel better to do so, but because “visualizing” something — ardently and with concentration — actually makes it happen. You will be able to pay that adjustable-rate mortgage or, at the other end of the transaction, turn thousands of bad mortgages into giga-profits if only you believe that you can.

Positive thinking is endemic to American culture — from weight loss programs to cancer support groups — and in the last two decades it has put down deep roots in the corporate world as well. Everyone knows that you won’t get a job paying more than $15 an hour unless you’re a “positive person,” and no one becomes a chief executive by issuing warnings of possible disaster.

The tomes in airport bookstores’ business sections warn against “negativity” and advise the reader to be at all times upbeat, optimistic, brimming with confidence. It’s a message companies relentlessly reinforced — treating their white-collar employees to manic motivational speakers and revival-like motivational events, while sending the top guys off to exotic locales to get pumped by the likes of Tony Robbins and other success gurus. Those who failed to get with the program would be subjected to personal “coaching” or shown the door.

The once-sober finance industry was not immune. On their Web sites, motivational speakers proudly list companies like Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch among their clients. What’s more, for those at the very top of the corporate hierarchy, all this positive thinking must not have seemed delusional at all. With the rise in executive compensation, bosses could have almost anything they wanted, just by expressing the desire. No one was psychologically prepared for hard times when they hit, because, according to the tenets of positive thinking, even to think of trouble is to bring it on. (...)

Not in the least championed/milked by The Secret and other woo...

arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 14, 2008 - 7:32pm

Bank of America buys out Merrill Lynch. Looks like Lehman Bros will go belly up. A rocky Monday coming up...
hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 14, 2008 - 8:56am

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan offered a woeful outlook of America's economic situation on Sunday, saying the crisis with the country's financial institutions was as dire as he had ever seen in his long career, and predicting that one or more of those institutions would likely collapse in the near future.

"Oh, by far," Greenspan said, when asked if the situation was the worst he had seen in his career. "There's no question that this is in the process of outstripping anything I've seen and it still is not resolved and still has a way to go and, indeed, it will continue to be a corrosive force until the price of homes in the United States stabilizes. That will induce a series of events around the globe which will stabilize the system."


laozilover

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Location: K Town (Kenosha, Wisconsin)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 25, 2008 - 4:42am

AlterNet logo


How Wall Street Wrecked Your RetirementBy Nicholas von Hoffman, The Nation. Posted July 25, 2008.

People are discovering they have been forced into a system in which others have gambled with their retirement savings and lost it.


Source


hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 24, 2008 - 8:13am

In you'r wondering if you're the only one going down the drain, you might want to read this article, to see how the govt has been f**king with the Middle Class all these years:

America's Middle Class Can't Take Much More Punishment


By Matt Taibbi, RollingStone.com. Posted July 23, 2008.

Whether we like it or not, America is in the midst of revolutionary economic changes that are crushing the middle class.
http://www.alternet.org/workplace/92431/america%27s_middle_class_can%27t_take_much_more_punishment/


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