islander wrote: 



Keep that self-interest/self-preservation stuff in mind the next time you're debating a libertarian. ;)

 rosedraws wrote: 



The kind of "dumb" you're talking about is no more hereditary than it was when people first started worrying about it years and years ago. It's not like there's a gene for bad choices, nutritional or otherwise. Considering that you've since gone on to talk about how much cheaper it is to educate than incarcerate, wouldn't it likewise make more sense to educate people about making better food choices?

Furthermore, many of the people making these poor choices aren't left a lot of options. Income limits choices, and healthy calories cost more than unhealthy ones. It takes more time and skill to shop for and prepare decent meals than it does to grab some Big Macs - especially if you don't live someplace where quality food is readily available.

And it's a little shocking to hear one of the most compassionate people I know get angry and judgmental about this. People don't make bad choices from sheer perversity: more often than not they make the best choices they know how from the options they have, just like you do. It's no reason to write them off and wait for the worst without lifting a finger.

At root, the problem of overpopulation is a problem of scarcity. In a world of infinite resources, we wouldn't care how many people there were. So the answer is better resource management, better resource multipliers like irrigation and fertilizer, better education, and increased access to contraception. Slow the growth instead of waiting for the dumb ones to meet Darwin and the old ones to run out of money.

COUNTDOWN

 Manbird wrote: 
... then I whispered, "tick tock, Batman." 

 romeotuma wrote: 
you first.

 romeotuma wrote: 
is there a death clock?

 rosedraws wrote:
  You and I are in 100% agreement Rose. I am sickened by the short-sightedness of many so-called 'conservative' policies. Note I'm not saying Republican or Democrat: those labels, indeed 'conservative' and 'liberal' labels, have flipped back and forth so many times they're meaningless.

We need to get past the stumbling blocks of raw ideology, no matter the breed. We need to find answers that WORK, even if they go against the grain of some folks' beliefs. Let's take a minor example, like, oh, say, abortion. Most everyone agrees abortions are bad: they are dangerous, unpleasant, traumatizing. HOW we reduce the number of abortions is the real issue: outlaw them? Ipso facto, only outlaws will have abortions. Or address the CAUSES of abortions: lack of, or improper use of, birth control being at the top of the list. (someone posted survey results awhile back. Interesting reading, if depressing.) But 'conservatives' argue against birth control at the same time they rail against abortion! In the history of mankind, has 'abstinence only' EVER worked? EVER?

That's just one small issue (tongue, cheek), and it happens to slam 'conservatives', but there are plenty of 'liberal' policies that have failed spectacularly. Ever drive through Detroit? Gutted high-rise 'projects': a 'liberal' ideology that reaped urban blight. If you GIVE something to someone, what do you think it is worth to them? Nothing!

We need to find solutions, not just keep hammering ideology. Yes, we need policies that stress self-control and personal responsibility. But we also need policies that provide opportunities to recover from our human failings.

Peace,

c.

 cc_rider wrote: 
I did not know that about PP, that's a bit depressing. At least some good has come out of the organization.

I'd like to use this moment to reiterate a theme I have mentioned elsewhere: We need to make the world a more dangerous place. We have gone so far in making everything safer that now everyone goes around running with sciscors without a second thought.  Let's sharpen the edges - Cars should all be fitted with the " darwin package" at the factory. It's a 8 inch steel spike where the air bag normally is, the seatbelts are in a box in the trunk. You can take the measures to make it safer before you leave the dealer, or just drive away and take your chances, your choice - but no suing anyone later (assuming you survive).

Most people aren't stupid, they are lazy. Given the choice they will just bounce along the padded walls that we put up. But if you leave the rough edges people's self interest will force most of them to make better decisions.

I really worry about long term health care. I think that diabetes treatment will be a big business in a few years, but it will be to late then. The problem is it won't kill them, just leave them incapacitated and unproductive. Then we'll have a real moral dilema ot deal with.

cc_rider wrote:
It's all about education.  Why is Denmark such a prosperous place?  Great culture and all that, but their entire population is well educated.

I was also thinking yesterday about Vermont, and a terrific program Gov Dean helped create:

In order to reduce crime, they started assisting their at-risk population while they were STILL IN THE WOMB. 

At-risk families were visited regularly during pregnancy, given assistance and advice.  The visit continued after the child was born.  The intention was for the family to feel supported and cared for.  The results were SUPERB.

It is way way way cheaper to offer significant assistance to a family than to incarcerated a troubled offspring later.

This kind of start-at-the-very-beginning support and assistance is the kind of thinking that can turn around our whole society.  It gives me hope that something CAN be done about even our most disturbing problems.

 rosedraws wrote:  You do know that was the original mission of 'Planned Parenthood'? The founder, Margaret Sanger, made no bones about it: she saw 'minorities' having far more children, and sought to address the 'problem'. In her day many of those minorities were caucasian, but that in no way diminished the racist overtones.

That said, I agree wholeheartedly. It is not about race: stupid people come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Smart ones too, for that matter. We DO need to address the situation, somehow, without falling back on outdated racial stereotyping.

c.

hypnotic world population clock...