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R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:31pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
et voilá!! 

It used to be uncontroversial to not be pro-NATO...

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:29pm

 R_P wrote:

You clearly have the need. Being against hegemony would be non-neutral. As would being in favour.


et voilá!!  

R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:22pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
I'll take that as an admission of your non-neutrality.

You clearly have the need. Being against hegemony would be non-neutral. As would being in favour.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:21pm

 R_P wrote:

Just as it makes you complicit in all hegemonic war and subversion?


I'll take that as an admission of your non-neutrality.

R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:12pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

FYT

.. and "understanding" these fascist regimes makes you complicit in this war against the will of the people.  We are talking about Ukraine here, right?


Just as it makes you complicit in all hegemonic war and subversion?

Some in the West like fascism. Always have. Me? Not so much.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:08pm

 R_P wrote:

It only takes a little bit of understanding and some humility to know that there are fascist regimes whose leaders have their own "interests" at heart and  are not going to be subservient to the interests of the people. That's understanding, not advocacy.


FYT

.. and "understanding" these fascist regimes makes you complicit in this war against the will of the people.  We are talking about Ukraine here, right?

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:02pm

 R_P wrote:

Except nothing is "easily-replaced," see the supply chain. Not the missiles, not the launchers. Without launchers there are no... launches. Pretty expensive radar works though.

I am not here to defend Russia or it's armaments. The article was about your side.

Save your dollars for the Ukrainians. A hundred bucks could buy them some candles. I've heard they might need some this winter.


  Except you do. All. The. Time.
R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 5:52pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
(...) Take comfort where you can.

It only takes a little bit of understanding and some humility to know that there are other countries that have their own "national interests" that are not going to be subservient to yours. That's understanding, not advocacy.

Facile straw men and red herrings won't help you sell overpriced and overrated "American Power™." Maybe still with some domestically and with some allies, but it comes with a lot of strings attached.

Lazy8

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 5:29pm

 R_P wrote:
Except nothing is "easily-replaced," see the supply chain. Not the missiles, not the launchers. Without launchers there are no... launches. Pretty expensive radar works though.

The thing about missile-based air defense systems is that the rockets are consumables. They're supposed to be replaced. The launcher is the simplest part of it.

Best numbers I can find say the launcher (M902) is about $10M. The cheapest missile it fires (the PAC-2 GEM-T, which fit 4 to a launcher) each cost $3.7M. A full load of those missiles costs more than the launcher.

I am not here to defend Russia or it's armaments. The article was about your side.

You're funny. I like you!

I don't do bets, ever, but time will obviously tell. It can't be too far off now. The F-16s and the glorious victory of Ukraine.

That'll really chap your ass, won't it? If it weren't for the whole stopping-the-(hopefully)-last-despotic-war-of-conquest-in-Europe thing that would make me feel just terrible.
Save your dollars for the Ukrainians. A hundred bucks could buy them some candles. I've heard they might need some this winter.

Proud of that, are you?

Putin may have wasted an entire generation of young men in two countries, squandered his country's future and resources, and made enemies of its neighbors but by golly he made those Ukrainians suffer.

Take comfort where you can.
R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 11:55am

 Lazy8 wrote:

Yes, launchers. The trucks with tubes that shoot the missiles out. The cheapest, easiest to spot, and most easily-replaced component in a battery. That's why I counted radars.

They were ambushed on the move, when the radar isn't operating and can't shoot back. Still counts of course, but it's not the part of the system that makes it cost north of a billion dollars.

The S-400 systems destroyed were all operational. Some of them even launched at the incoming missiles and drones that took them out. If you want to count launchers then your side looks even worse: Russia has lost 17 S-400 launchers.

And if you want to count rocket artillery systems lost (HIMARS is artillery, not anti-air) I encourage you to compare the loss statistics for both the Ukrainians and your side. Real statistics, of course—Sergey Shoigu does not count.

Offer stands. A hundred filthy capitalist dollars you could send to Russia to buy part of a glide bomb to drop on a Ukrainian hardware store. All it takes is Russia to prove its obvious superiority at weapons development.


Except nothing is "easily-replaced," see the supply chain. Not the missiles, not the launchers. Without launchers there are no... launches. Pretty expensive radar works though.

I am not here to defend Russia or it's armaments. The article was about your side.

I don't do bets, ever, but time will obviously tell. It can't be too far off now. The F-16s and the glorious victory of Ukraine.

Save your dollars for the Ukrainians. A hundred bucks could buy them some candles. I've heard they might need some this winter.

Lazy8

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 10:12am

 R_P wrote:

You're full of it?

A Russian Drone Spotted A Ukrainian Patriot Air-Defense Crew Convoying Near The Front Line. Soon, A Russian Hypersonic Missile Streaked Down.
Ukraine just lost its first Patriot launchers, and probably their crews.

He who must not be named or believed says it's five launchers gone.

Yes, launchers. The trucks with tubes that shoot the missiles out. The cheapest, easiest to spot, and most easily-replaced component in a battery. That's why I counted radars.

They were ambushed on the move, when the radar isn't operating and can't shoot back. Still counts of course, but it's not the part of the system that makes it cost north of a billion dollars.

The S-400 systems destroyed were all operational. Some of them even launched at the incoming missiles and drones that took them out. If you want to count launchers then your side looks even worse: Russia has lost 17 S-400 launchers.

And if you want to count rocket artillery systems lost (HIMARS is artillery, not anti-air) I encourage you to compare the loss statistics for both the Ukrainians and your side. Real statistics, of course—Sergey Shoigu does not count.

Offer stands. A hundred filthy capitalist dollars you could send to Russia to buy part of a glide bomb to drop on a Ukrainian hardware store. All it takes is Russia to prove its obvious superiority at weapons development.

R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 1:29am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Patriot has been in production since 1981. Significant upgrades over time, but the basic system is over 40 years old. Ukraine has lost...let's see...carry the 7...none. (...)

What do you say? 

You're full of it?

A Russian Drone Spotted A Ukrainian Patriot Air-Defense Crew Convoying Near The Front Line. Soon, A Russian Hypersonic Missile Streaked Down.
Ukraine just lost its first Patriot launchers, and probably their crews.

He who must not be named or believed says it's five launchers gone.

haresfur

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Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 11:03pm

 R_P wrote:

I think you mean Russian invaded areas
haresfur

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Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 11:03pm

 R_P wrote:

I think you mean Russian invaded areas
Lazy8

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Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 10:56pm

 R_P wrote:
Ukraine War rips veil off of US weapons superiority
Many of the failures, including the HIMARS, have been due to their reliance on GPS
Critics have long maintained that our obsession with technologically complex weapons inevitably yields unreliable systems produced in limited numbers because of their predictably high cost. They are furthermore likely to fail in combat because of the military’s lack of interest in adequate testing (lest realistic tests reveal serious shortcomings and thereby threaten the budget.) The unforgiving operational test provided by the Ukraine war has shown that the critics were absolutely right. Successive “game changing” systems - such as the Switchblade drone, the M-1 Abrams tank, Patriot air defense missiles, the M777 howitzer, the Excalibur guided 155 mm artillery round, the HIMARS precision missile, GPS-guided bombs, and Skydio drones endowed with artificial intelligence, were all dispatched to “the fight,” as the military like to call it, with fanfare and high expectations.

Said with (presumably) a straight face! Very impressive.

Here are the Oryx estimates for Russian equipment losses for the war to date. Ukrainian losses here. I invite you to compare.

The bulk of the Ukrainian losses are ancient Soviet equipment but a telling comparison is radars for top-of-the-line anti-air missile systems The radar modules are the most important (and most expensive) component of the system. For Ukraine this would be US Patriot batteries, for Russia it would be S-400. Most estimates put production costs for an S-400 at about $500M USD. Patriot production cost is about $1.09B USD, roughly twice as much. Export costs for each are roughly double the production costs.

S-400 has been in production since 2007.  Russia has lost 4 to date —only counting destroyed systems, not damaged and repairable—and one command module.

Patriot has been in production since 1981. Significant upgrades over time, but the basic system is over 40 years old. Ukraine has lost...let's see...carry the 7...none.

The S-400s have all been lost to airborne attack, either missiles or drones—the very threat it's supposed to defend against. The top-of-the-line Russian air defense system needs...a better air defense system to protect it.

F-16s haven't arrived yet. Care to put money up on the air-to-air kill ratio once they do? Here's a hint: to date the F-16 stats are: 76-1-5: 76 air-to-air kills, 1 air-to-air loss, 5 lost due to ground fire.

F-16 was introduced in 1978. Again, significant upgrades over time, but basically a 50 year old design.

MiG-29 (introduced in 1983, the nearest equivalent to the F-16 despite having twice the number of engines) has a record of 6-18-1.

I'm serious. Let's set terms and I'll bet you straight across, $100 USD to $100 CDN that the F-16 air-to-air kill ratio will be greater than 1:1 6 months after rollout, as verified by Oryx or Deepstate—take your pick.

What do you say?

R_P

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Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 7:06pm

What the Swiss 'peace summit' can realistically achieve
Putin offers truce if Ukraine exits Russian-claimed areas and drops NATO bid. Kyiv rejects it
R_P

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Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 3:07pm

Ukraine War rips veil off of US weapons superiority
Many of the failures, including the HIMARS, have been due to their reliance on GPS
Critics have long maintained that our obsession with technologically complex weapons inevitably yields unreliable systems produced in limited numbers because of their predictably high cost. They are furthermore likely to fail in combat because of the military’s lack of interest in adequate testing (lest realistic tests reveal serious shortcomings and thereby threaten the budget.) The unforgiving operational test provided by the Ukraine war has shown that the critics were absolutely right. Successive “game changing” systems - such as the Switchblade drone, the M-1 Abrams tank, Patriot air defense missiles, the M777 howitzer, the Excalibur guided 155 mm artillery round, the HIMARS precision missile, GPS-guided bombs, and Skydio drones endowed with artificial intelligence, were all dispatched to “the fight,” as the military like to call it, with fanfare and high expectations.

Beaker

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Posted: May 31, 2024 - 12:08pm

 thisbody wrote:
Biden Authorizes Ukraine to Make “Limited” Strikes on Russia With US Weapons

Germany promptly follows suit, after politicians bribed by the military-industrial complex from all ends of NATO have started to cry out "the need" for days. - If you ask me, again, capitalism is risking to plunge the world into chaos for more financial gains of a select few.


"after politicians bribed by the military-industrial complex from all ends of NATO"



R_P

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Posted: May 31, 2024 - 10:11am

More elastic red lines.
thisbody

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Posted: May 31, 2024 - 9:07am

Biden Authorizes Ukraine to Make “Limited” Strikes on Russia With US Weapons

Germany promptly follows suit, after politicians bribed by the military-industrial complex from all ends of NATO have started to cry out "the need" for days. - If you ask me, again, capitalism is risking to plunge the world into chaos for more financial gains of a select few.

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