<—- comes ridin' up fast, swingin' his Bible over his head. 

...
Actually, I have nothing to say but someone was expecting me to... I know it. 

 Proclivities wrote: 

 winter wrote:  

The capitalization debate is closed, I accept your point.  In my meager defense, I truly thought what I stated, and I asked another after the fact if they had the same thought.  They did, but no matter.  We are here, and the discussion here is all that matters.

I have largely missed any discussions here about atheism other than a couple of exchanges in some of the other  threads.  I stayed out of the Gervais thread back in the day.  I never shared my thoughts here before of my view of a secular world, I have just raised my objections in some of the poly threads without really ever stating why as I did earler today.  Yet they are my concerns, especially when a government leads the charge. 

I have always seen the state being the religious authority as it was by default in the Soviet Union where religion was banned outright.  That is the model I have seen in practice.  The Soviet Union was an atheist state, IMHO.  That is what I have to work with.  Are there other examples other than China and other communist countries of how a secular state works ?  Perhaps Turkey.  But Turkey is a much smaller scale compared to the US, USSR and PRC. Turkey relies on the military to overthrow any government that strays from its secular constitution.  That however is changing as Sharia is taking over that country with little opposition by the military, who have been the traditional standard bearers of its secularism. 

I once believed that the US was the place where all religions or nonreligions could peacefully coexist.  I no longer believe that.  I lay that at the feet of the radical Christian right, whose over zealousness has polarized this country to the point we are at today.  And Madison Avenue who exploits anything for a buck.  I have little use for organized religion, especially any that says their way is the best or only way to go.  Organized religion should be taxed, especially as it sticks its nose into politics more and more.  How would that impact our deficit, eh ?

I believe that it was you IIRC who stated something to the effect that just because one does not believe in a higher power or deity, that doesn't mean that they don't believe in another existence after death.  If it wasn't you, I apologize for forgeting who expressed that thought.  It took a little time to wrap my head around that idea.  I have other questions about how atheism functions as a (non)belief system, but I won't press you to repeat yourself.  I'll just accept your take with respect and let it be.  I'm sure each person's explanation will be different from the next one's.  There is little to gain in that pursuit other than sating personal curiosity.

My personal sense of wonder is rooted in the thought that life is more than just a collection of random events.  There is an order to the physical universe.  Order is not a random event, therefore ... something is responsible for this order.

 winter wrote: 
Very well said. 

 kurtster wrote: 



I chose fictional characters to directly counter your "you must believe if you capitalize" assertion. I don't believe in Sam Gamgee, but since his name is a proper noun I capitalize it. I am not one of those atheists who finds it entertaining to mock others' belief - as Lazy8 pointed out, I merely believe in one less god than most Christians.

As for the rest: if you truly think that a secular worldview is devoid of meaning, joy, and wonder - if you truly feel that there can be no cause for celebration or commemoration without a god- if you truly believe that secularism leads to oppression and a bleak tyranny, then I really have nothing to say to you. Because I can tell you that I and other atheists here have answered those questions over and over, have shared with everyone here the wonder and freedom we feel in our views, and have expressed time and again our opposition to the stark, rigid autocracy you fear.

 kurtster wrote: 


YKurt, Christmas is a religious holiday and should be separated privately by those who believe, my problem comes from having it forced on me. This is not a Christian country and my tax dollars should not be spent to celebrate a Christian holiday. I get a laugh at how white Christian men think they are being persecuted. War on Xmas? Make me laugh! It's in yer face everywhere for at least two solid months.
Being a moral person does not require a god, and personally some of the most immoral people seem to have the strongest. Belief in a god.
In answer to your question, atheists want to be the best they can be just for themselves, not because someone may be watching. And there is probably just as wide a variation among atheists as there are among believers. I just don't get what a god has to do with how a person lives their life.

 winter wrote: 

I didn't make any jokes, and you are not suggesting that either.  I made a general remark directed at no one in particular.  I know the capitalizing of a proper noun part.  You responded with a list of ficticious characters as an example for capitalization.  By association with these ficticious characters, I read that you considered 'God' to be a ficticious character as well.

Perhaps my comment originated from dealing with all the stepped up negativity being directed at Christians and Christmas lately. Holiday trees, really.  Its a flippin Christmas tree for Pete's sake.  This PC does admittedly get my undies in a bunch.  I do realize that no one in this thread has jumped on the anti Christmas bandwagon, with the exception of HC.  But where does this attack on Christmas and Christianity originate ?  Is it wrong to say that it comes from atheists in general who have been offended to the nth degree ?  If not who then ?  Christmas is a federal holiday.  This is a thread about a dead atheistic revolutionary who among other things has been an outspoken advocate of removing anything religious, especially Christian from public acceptance and tolerance.  First he was a Marxist and then a capitalist, then finally back to Marxist.  There is an example of iron clad thinking and steadfast conviction if there ever was one.  I see him more as an example of if I'm not happy, I will make sure that no one else is either.

Where better a place to make my observation than here ?  I saw it as an observation of irony, overall.  I had to use some stretches to respond, but no more of a stretch than associating 'God' with a bunch of known ficticious characters to make a point.

To the broader and not you at all ...

WTF is wrong with the notion of Santa ?  As I sit back after nearly 60 years of trapesing around this planet, I realize or believe that the notion of Santa is more of a device to get kids to behave in return for a reward more than anything else.  Now Christmas has become nothing more than a marketing ploy to guilt people into spending money they don't have.  And it is now becoming a wedge to bolster and legitimize the class warfare argument.  Parents become despondent because they cannot provide their kids with all the toys being bandied about on mass media and kids return to school with an inferiority complex because they didn't get what they wanted while their friends did.

Its now ok to openly mock Christmas, the Festivus tree being the prime example.  Its now ok to mock anything Christian.  But heaven help those who mock any other religious notions.  So I zeroed in on a literary convention, what of it ?

Let's end all celebration.  No more holidays, no more rememberances.  Everyday is just another day.  Labor day is for Union memebrs, not for minimum wage eaners.  Christmas should no longer be a federal holiday.  No more holidays for remembering dead guys.  What's so great about buying new calendars ?  We need a holiday for that ?  The NFL has trumped New Years as a holiday.  The only reason we still have a summer vacation for school children is because most classrooms still do not have central airconditioning.

Let's make this a truly secular country.  No allowance for the unknown, unsubstantiated, unprecidented.  No more fables to make points, like the tortoise and the hare.  Let's do away with the false beliefs of hope and optimism.  Let's educate our children with the truth from the beginning.  You are going to work and going to school is work.  You will work till you drop.  You will be tested and assigned your career path and better accept it or go to a gulag.  If you are not born rich, that is your lot in life.  You will be unable to change that.  There is no joy in being alive, its just a corporeal experience.  Turn off your imagination, stick to what is at hand.  Be like the drone bee or ant.  We are here only to serve the elite secularists.  Because they said so ...  Question nothing. 

The source of happiness will only come from accepting your lot and serving your elitists masters and not being punished as long as your quotas are met.  You will only receive the education required to accomplish your tasks.  This will prevent questioning.  Books will be totally destroyed so no one can stumble upon forgotten ideas.  If its not on your kindle then it doesn't exist.  Kindles are book burning devices, but no one seems to be making that association.  The elite can turn off the kindles at their whim now with their Internet kill switch.

Let's assign a monetary value to everything.  No longer allow charity.  No longer allow goodwill.  Kindness is a weakness to be replaced by fairness.  If you can't get paid for it, don't allow it.  Materialism is the one true religion.  The persuit of the shiny object.  Really, what does an atheist have to offer other than materialism and efficiency to life, after all ?  Where do atheists draw their hope and inspiration for a better life other than from materialsim ? 

I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colors anymore I want them to turn black
I see the girls walk by dressed in their summer clothes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes

I see a line of cars and they're all painted black
With flowers and my love both never to come back
I see people turn their heads and quickly look away
Like a new born baby it just happens every day

 sirdroseph wrote: 
My Pappy, when answering the question  posed by a little boy interested in trucks and gears and the road ahead;
"Daddy, what would happen if you didn't shift gears?"
"Well, your motor would over rev and blow up."
"oH" 

 oldviolin wrote: 
Yep and as my Pappy would say; "Parts is parts."

 sirdroseph wrote: 
The point is, a person can see or say what they wish, but by the time you hear footsteps you have to figure out what exactly you're hearing, and whether you're on the sidewalk or under the pier...then, an evaluation might be in order, based on the evidence produced by pure thought comprised of creative imagination and willful exposure to the joy and pain of life. We can't get a handle on it by arguing over the internet, but we can offer up ideas and notions and use the sheer force of goodness to overcome what man himself has wrought of this beautiful worlds potential for the blessings of perpetuity. 
Seems the moment that the labels and locked doors come out on display, people seem to revert to a primal defense mechanism, and by extension the accompanied bloodshed...all too eventually. 

 oldviolin wrote: 
You threatening me?! In Soviet Russia threaten mes you.

 sirdroseph wrote: 
In the grand scheme of things, the desire for electronic validation of one sort or another is just a microscopic pin in the cushion. Oddly, belief in or of something is not a test to pass or fail, but an internal set of hopes vying with doubts over the rules for the evolution of stardust and what to call the whispering wind. oR NoT...

 oldviolin wrote: 
Those who deem it important to know others personal belief or disbelief in God or is it god and then look for clues in their grammar usage. ThAt would be ThEm.

 sirdroseph wrote: 
Define tHeM and tHeY...

 winter wrote: 
i've learned that arguments over the most insignificant minutia are the norm around here and that isn't likely to change.

 oldslabsides wrote: 



So you've learned nothing and changed less, then. ;)

The only thing I know is the Fantasy Football Gods are displeased with me.Hopefully by capitalizing their name, I will get back in their good graces or is it Graces?

 kurtster wrote: 
Ah. I re-backscrolled and re-read this second post from Kurt on this subject. winter's reply to it was respectful but perhaps too much so: This premise is simply wrong. Any elaborate argument built on it will be spectacularly wrong.

 oldslabsides wrote: 
yOu ShOuLd TrY dOiNg ThIs. It WiLl CoNfUsE tHeM, tHeY wIlL hAvE nO wAy Of KnOwInG wHeThEr YoU aRe A bElIeVeR oR nOt.